wren
Member
Posts: 17
|
Post by wren on Dec 9, 2013 0:41:18 GMT -8
Taking down the avatar of two warriors may help your marriage. Nice find. Interesting subtleties. In company, that requests a deeper view, a richer find is most easily found.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Dec 12, 2013 9:30:04 GMT -8
You can't empty yourself enough to cause another to 'come empty'. The storm is her storm and not yours. You can't take on that responsibility. It will exhaust itself as you weather it.
|
|
|
Post by Portto on Dec 23, 2013 7:22:41 GMT -8
Hmmmm.... could there be a natural law such as "conservation of fulness" or "conservation of emptiness" ? Such a law would make it impossible for everybody to come empty.
|
|
|
Post by Portto on Dec 25, 2013 8:03:32 GMT -8
You can't empty yourself enough to cause another to 'come empty'. The storm is her storm and not yours. You can't take on that responsibility. It will exhaust itself as you weather it. Yep, that's a very important observation. One of the most difficult things to "control/influence" is someone else's focus.
|
|
wren
Member
Posts: 17
|
Post by wren on Dec 25, 2013 20:22:53 GMT -8
You can't empty yourself enough to cause another to 'come empty'. The storm is her storm and not yours. You can't take on that responsibility. It will exhaust itself as you weather it. Are older men naturally better at weathering storms, as stoicism often shows? ..(As I don't often see stoicism in female behaviour, unless they are exemplifying an exceptional long view, of earth/life.)
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Dec 25, 2013 21:09:49 GMT -8
One of the most difficult things to "control/influence" is someone else's focus. Yeah, that's what most are trying to figure out, be it friends, mates, parents, children, media or government.
|
|
|
Post by Portto on Dec 26, 2013 6:48:39 GMT -8
One of the most difficult things to "control/influence" is someone else's focus. Yeah, that's what most are trying to figure out, be it friends, mates, parents, children, media or government.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Dec 26, 2013 9:12:46 GMT -8
You can't empty yourself enough to cause another to 'come empty'. The storm is her storm and not yours. You can't take on that responsibility. It will exhaust itself as you weather it. Yep, that's a very important observation. One of the most difficult things to "control/influence" is someone else's focus. OTOH, it's true that 'everybody is where they need to be', as relationships are formed by our own focus of attention. It also means that one who cannot come empty cannot remain for long (or remain full) in the presence of your emptiness.
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Jan 5, 2014 0:54:36 GMT -8
Hi Enigma,
What do you mean by empty yourself? Is it something like free of limiting belief?Or free from the belief of separation?If so, how can you make that to happen?
|
|
|
Post by jettikai on Mar 23, 2014 9:35:05 GMT -8
Hi Enigma, What do you mean by empty yourself? Is it something like free of limiting belief?Or free from the belief of separation?If so, how can you make that to happen? Being free from the belief in separation sounds nice. Seemingly, there's two types of beliefs that we can forumlate, conscious and unconscious. The religious fanatic will likely tell you about some firmly established beliefs, and if you were to tell that fanatic that freedom is the absence of those beliefs, they just might chop your head off. These are beliefs which the identity are tied up in, and the reason they exist relatively is because their presence is desirable even if limiting. The question is, how and why do such beliefs formulate. Obviously similar structures are erected in the spiritual game, as the idea that everything is one and that the individual is that one cascade out beyond the already existing belief structures to provide the emotional body with some distance from an experience which can only be interpreted as conditions separate from a conditioned self. The last thing the mind identification wants is the loss of identity, such that moving the belief line outward into some transcendent conceptual framework actually serves to prevent coming empty than not. When you factor in experiential glimpses of oneness and the like you have an ongoing experience which can confirm the relative truth of a belief structure which is often erected under the guise of not believing in anything or the idea that nothing is ultimately true. There is an energetic movement which leads to the creation of conscious belief structures, as much present in the religious fanatic as the latest pop de jour spiritual guru, and that is the conditioned mechanical tendency to break off from one's own line of thinking, leading to an unconscious mind and a conscious one. That break in thinking leads to an energetic barrier, as thoughts and feelings mechanically oriented to happen are denied the chance to do so. The rebound effect from that break leads to conscious belief structures and the unconscious energy which keeps them in place. Meaning, the religious fanatic might tell you about all sorts of beliefs, but in actuality he has no idea why he believes what he does. Becoming conscious of how and why would be the end of the belief, which isn't the inability to entertain an idea, just the absence of the limitation experienced through that entertainment.
|
|
burt
Member
Posts: 198
|
Post by burt on Mar 26, 2014 16:20:07 GMT -8
Hi Enigma, What do you mean by empty yourself? Is it something like free of limiting belief?Or free from the belief of separation?If so, how can you make that to happen? Being free from the belief in separation sounds nice. Seemingly, there's two types of beliefs that we can forumlate, conscious and unconscious. The religious fanatic will likely tell you about some firmly established beliefs, and if you were to tell that fanatic that freedom is the absence of those beliefs, they just might chop your head off. These are beliefs which the identity are tied up in, and the reason they exist relatively is because their presence is desirable even if limiting. The question is, how and why do such beliefs formulate. Obviously similar structures are erected in the spiritual game, as the idea that everything is one and that the individual is that one cascade out beyond the already existing belief structures to provide the emotional body with some distance from an experience which can only be interpreted as conditions separate from a conditioned self. The last thing the mind identification wants is the loss of identity, such that moving the belief line outward into some transcendent conceptual framework actually serves to prevent coming empty than not. When you factor in experiential glimpses of oneness and the like you have an ongoing experience which can confirm the relative truth of a belief structure which is often erected under the guise of not believing in anything or the idea that nothing is ultimately true. There is an energetic movement which leads to the creation of conscious belief structures, as much present in the religious fanatic as the latest pop de jour spiritual guru, and that is the conditioned mechanical tendency to break off from one's own line of thinking, leading to an unconscious mind and a conscious one. That break in thinking leads to an energetic barrier, as thoughts and feelings mechanically oriented to happen are denied the chance to do so. The rebound effect from that break leads to conscious belief structures and the unconscious energy which keeps them in place. Meaning, the religious fanatic might tell you about all sorts of beliefs, but in actuality he has no idea why he believes what he does. Becoming conscious of how and why would be the end of the belief, which isn't the inability to entertain an idea, just the absence of the limitation experienced through that entertainment. So the guise of not believing in anything or the idea that nothing is ultimately true are examples of "conscious beliefs"?
|
|
|
Post by jettikai2 on Mar 27, 2014 6:09:46 GMT -8
If we're going to use the word guise then sure, the idea that nothing is believed on the conscious level can be (as opposed to must be) proof that something is believed unconsciously. This doesn't implicitly mean that the idea of not believing in anything to describe a mind state or dynamic mode of thought means the same thing. I would say the former guise is far more common than the latter description, however.
|
|
burt
Member
Posts: 198
|
Post by burt on Mar 27, 2014 17:40:52 GMT -8
If we're going to use the word guise then sure, the idea that nothing is believed on the conscious level can be (as opposed to must be) proof that something is believed unconsciously. "Guise" wasn't my word. The only way to walk "I don't have any beliefs" is either silence or dishonesty, but even silence might be a ploy to avoid removing all doubt. This doesn't implicitly mean that the idea of not believing in anything to describe a mind state or dynamic mode of thought means the same thing. I would say the former guise is far more common than the latter description, however. On the other hand, "nothing is ultimately true" (or some variation thereof) is an idea that can be encountered in the natural course of conversation -- a reflection of a mind state in a dynamic mode of thought that involves noticing, as Phil refers to here: " Living consciously involves being consciously aware of how we filter our perception to create our own unique subjective experience of the objective world." On the other hand, it might be that first mask you were referring to. It's possible to discern which is the case -- at least in some instances -- by engagement in conversation.
|
|
|
Post by jettikai2 on Mar 28, 2014 8:46:37 GMT -8
Right I said guise because I was talking about the deceptive non believers so when you asked the question I lumped it in with that group. The only way to walk I don't have any beliefs is to realize those feet thingamajiggers don't actually belong to you. It's a nonsense idea to begin with. It's like the water in the cup asking how to empty the cup. Then life turns the cup upside down, and all the other waters want to know what it feels like to be empty. The empty cup doesn't translate into water terms except in the sense there's no more water. Seeing that nothing is ultimately true helps in bringing down beliefs when they're already on the table. It can also put the beliefs beneath the table under the protection of the table cloth with the marking 'nothing is ultimately true' reflecting off the chandelier hanging from Grandma's fancy 19th century Miss Havishamesque 30 foot ceiling. So we come back to the question of whether or not liberation is freedom from belief? At that point a helpful caveat to acknowledge is whether belief is lined up with desire. That line marks the suffering, because that's where the head-banging takes place.
|
|
|
Post by Mike on Mar 30, 2014 16:55:37 GMT -8
Funny, was walking with wife earlier when she asked me about beliefs. I didn't know how to answer at the time, other than "I don't believe"....... of course which can't be true. Then I get this pull to check out Phil's site and find this gem.... wish I could understand half of what is meant here, but it feels right.
Mike
|
|