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Post by roberto on Feb 9, 2013 20:39:59 GMT -8
I look back on how much effort was spent trying to avoid or resist suffering. I believed that I had the wrong frame of mind and that I should not be suffering.
Now I realize that the REAL source of my suffering trying to be free from suffering.
Now I can suffer freely. I can feel like shit without thinking something is wrong. I know I don't have to do anything about it. I don't have to try to prevent it.
Aaaah... what a sigh of relief.
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Post by roberto on Feb 9, 2013 20:55:22 GMT -8
Hmm. Maybe it would be a good idea to distinguish between pain and suffering. Pain is the temporary mental and emotional state that occurs now. Suffering is the resistance to pain coupled with the identification with past and future projections.
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Post by silvery1 on Feb 9, 2013 23:06:15 GMT -8
I look back on how much effort was spent trying to avoid or resist suffering. I believed that I had the wrong frame of mind and that I should not be suffering. Now I realize that the REAL source of my suffering trying to be free from suffering. Now I can suffer freely. I can feel like shit without thinking something is wrong. I know I don't have to do anything about it. I don't have to try to prevent it. Aaaah... what a sigh of relief. I never thought of it that way, Roberto. Pretty cool. It's just when others see you suffering and they want to 'fix' you and give you advice on how to avoid it. Instead of just letting you be in that mode. It's also about not feeling guilty that you're suffering. For some reason, the phrase "modern man" just flitted through my mind. |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 10, 2013 0:59:50 GMT -8
Now I can suffer freely. I can feel like shit without thinking something is wrong. I know I don't have to do anything about it. I don't have to try to prevent it.
Aaaah... what a sigh of relief. Feeling like shit means there IS something wrong. |
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Post by roberto on Feb 10, 2013 9:03:17 GMT -8
I look back on how much effort was spent trying to avoid or resist suffering. I believed that I had the wrong frame of mind and that I should not be suffering. Now I realize that the REAL source of my suffering trying to be free from suffering. Now I can suffer freely. I can feel like shit without thinking something is wrong. I know I don't have to do anything about it. I don't have to try to prevent it. Aaaah... what a sigh of relief. I never thought of it that way, Roberto. Pretty cool. It's just when others see you suffering and they want to 'fix' you and give you advice on how to avoid it. Instead of just letting you be in that mode. It's also about not feeling guilty that you're suffering. For some reason, the phrase "modern man" just flitted through my mind. Exactly! |
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Post by enigma on Feb 10, 2013 9:38:56 GMT -8
Now I can suffer freely. I can feel like shit without thinking something is wrong. I know I don't have to do anything about it. I don't have to try to prevent it.
Aaaah... what a sigh of relief. Feeling like shit means there IS something wrong. I had the same thought. Roberto, can you be more specific about what you mean by that? |
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Post by roberto on Feb 10, 2013 13:44:53 GMT -8
Feeling like shit means there IS something wrong. I had the same thought. Roberto, can you be more specific about what you mean by that? I'd say that being unconscious of the mechanics that result in suffering is a "problem." However, that pain has to be walked through to understand it. What I meant, though, was that becoming conscious doesn't guarantee that all pain is removed. It happens for some emotional experiences. However, some emotional tendencies has stronger momentum than others and can take longer (if not forever) to fall away. Some of the negative experiences are just a pin prick, and some not. That said, my experience is that the dualistic nature of experience is as predictable as clockwork... Entertained-->Bored/Restless Happy-->Sad Comforted-->Lonely Pleasure-->Pain ... We can eliminate the causes and conditions to prevent the emotional swing, but that can get pretty dry. I like the ups and downs. Oh yea. I also hate pretty much everybody if I only get 5 hours of sleep. I suffer, but I understand the causes and conditions and I surely don't believe any of it. I don't call any of that a problem, that's just how it is. You manage to find the secret to staying on the positive side of the pendulum, Enigma? |
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Post by roberto on Feb 10, 2013 13:50:39 GMT -8
PS. I don't claim to understand everything. I may even be wrong about some of the stuff that comes out of my mouth. But as far as I can tell, most of it is a result of direct experience. On the other hand, I know it takes time for wisdom to really mature (not that there's an end to it).
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Post by Reefs on Feb 10, 2013 19:59:48 GMT -8
I'd say that being unconscious of the mechanics that result in suffering is a "problem." However, that pain has to be walked through to understand it. I'd say it's not the 'problem'. Are toddlers and babies and the animals in the wild conscious of the mechanics that result in suffering? Do they have to walk thru pain to understand it? The pendulum metaphor isn't a very accurate one. Things keep changing, the goal post keeps moving, so it always has to be looked for a higher high because the high you had yesterday doesn't seem that high anymore today. So it doesn't have to swing into the negative. Your vantage point changed. You look at things differently. You need a higher and more refined high now. And there is no end to it as long as it is only about personal vantage points. And I guess you don't necessarily like the ups and downs, a continuous up will do as well. What you like is feeling fully alive. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 10, 2013 23:35:42 GMT -8
I had the same thought. Roberto, can you be more specific about what you mean by that? I'd say that being unconscious of the mechanics that result in suffering is a "problem." However, that pain has to be walked through to understand it. What I meant, though, was that becoming conscious doesn't guarantee that all pain is removed. It happens for some emotional experiences. However, some emotional tendencies has stronger momentum than others and can take longer (if not forever) to fall away. Some of the negative experiences are just a pin prick, and some not. That said, my experience is that the dualistic nature of experience is as predictable as clockwork... Entertained-->Bored/Restless Happy-->Sad Comforted-->Lonely Pleasure-->Pain ... We can eliminate the causes and conditions to prevent the emotional swing, but that can get pretty dry. I like the ups and downs. Oh yea. I also hate pretty much everybody if I only get 5 hours of sleep. I suffer, but I understand the causes and conditions and I surely don't believe any of it. I don't call any of that a problem, that's just how it is. You manage to find the secret to staying on the positive side of the pendulum, Enigma? No, it's not possible to stay on the positive side. Both sides are being imagined and are therefore mutually defining. However, there's no need. The pendulum swing is not the problem. Feelings are not the cause of suffering, but rather what the mind does in response to feelings. We could say wanting to 'stay on the positive side' is the reason for suffering. Once suffering happens, we give those non-suffering feelings suffering names and say that feeling is a problem to solve. Of course, that imaginary problem cannot be solved. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 10, 2013 23:40:53 GMT -8
I'd say that being unconscious of the mechanics that result in suffering is a "problem." However, that pain has to be walked through to understand it. I'd say it's not the 'problem'. Are toddlers and babies and the animals in the wild conscious of the mechanics that result in suffering? Do they have to walk thru pain to understand it? Those creatures have not lost their innocence. Innocence cannot be regained and so the suffering that results from that loss must be transcended. |
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Post by Gopal on Feb 11, 2013 0:32:05 GMT -8
Enigma,
can you please tell me what is the difference between when you are in positive side of the roller coaster and when LOVE is in expression? both gives the Joy,isn't it?
Raj
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Post by enigma on Feb 11, 2013 8:01:16 GMT -8
Enigma, can you please tell me what is the difference between when you are in positive side of the roller coaster and when LOVE is in expression? both gives the Joy,isn't it? Raj Roller coaster happiness is conditional, and you have to be moving to experience it, so when you are at the top you know where you are going next. There can be no Peace there. Peace and Love are unconditional. You cannot be robbed of your Peace because it's the ground that you stand on, the reference for all movement, the essence from which all feeling originates. |
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Post by Gopal on Feb 11, 2013 10:00:14 GMT -8
Enigma, can you please tell me what is the difference between when you are in positive side of the roller coaster and when LOVE is in expression? both gives the Joy,isn't it? Raj Roller coaster happiness is conditional, and you have to be moving to experience it, so when you are at the top you know where you are going next. There can be no Peace there. Peace and Love are unconditional. You cannot be robbed of your Peace because it's the ground that you stand on, the reference for all movement, the essence from which all feeling originates. Yes I do admit. But consider the situation in which is Love is expressed. Though you are LOVE, Love is not going to be expressed all the time right? It is expressed time to time. Whenever Love is expressed you feel joy. Now my question was, How do you differentiate this joy(Love is expressed) from the joy which you gain from Roller coaster positive side? |
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Post by Gopal on Feb 11, 2013 10:00:50 GMT -8
Enigma, can you please tell me what is the difference between when you are in positive side of the roller coaster and when LOVE is in expression? both gives the Joy,isn't it? Raj Roller coaster happiness is conditional, and you have to be moving to experience it, so when you are at the top you know where you are going next. There can be no Peace there. Peace and Love are unconditional. You cannot be robbed of your Peace because it's the ground that you stand on, the reference for all movement, the essence from which all feeling originates. Yes I do admit. But consider the situation where Love is expressed. Though you are LOVE, Love is not going to be expressed all the time right? It is expressed time to time. Whenever Love is expressed you feel joy. Now my question was, How do you differentiate this joy(Love is expressed) from the joy which you gain from Roller coaster positive side? And when you say "LOVE moves by itself" it is about loving others ,isn't it? |
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