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Post by humphrey on Jan 18, 2013 10:07:20 GMT -8
She may have felt frustrated in not being able to nurture the kids as she had planned with the yummy pizza -well at least this was my initial reaction but I am aware I am projecting.  I feel very content and in a loving space when preparing a meal, but not every woman (or man) feels the way I do. Being in a relationship where there are no expectations has ironically led to meeting all my 'needs'. I told Phil today when we were discussing relationships, that not once in the years we have been together have I questioned whether I am happy with him or not, it's a given I am, so the question doesn't occur to me. I realized with more clarity today, that when we are not creating separation with expectations, the mind does not have anything to latch on in order to for to confirm something is 'wrong' with our partner and that he/she needs to change. Yes, expectations seem like an outgrowth of something else. They are the cards upon which a house is built. |
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Post by humphrey on Jan 18, 2013 10:14:17 GMT -8
Clear signs of overwhelment, Hump. She has more things on her to do list for a day than 10 people could ever accomplish in a week kinda thing, I guess. She had a perfect plan and you screwed that perfect plan up. She had not plan B. That makes you so malevolent. However, it has nothing to do with what you do or don't do that lets her freak out. She would have found something else if the cheese wasn't the issue, maybe the way you breathe or walk or whatever. ;D I'm sure my walking is really annoying right now as it resembles someone shuffling about on thin cracking ice.  The event this morning was the missing children's skis. uh oh. I have no memory of where I put them, if I put them somewhere. Enigma's right, this could be my own mind's conspiracy of forgetting to spark some sort of dramatic crash of the house of cards. It'll cost $60 to rent. oy vey. I'm hoping some of those blasted gnomes took 'em. If y'all don't hear from me again, my fate might be: skewered by ski pole.  |
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2013 10:23:09 GMT -8
Clear signs of overwhelment, Hump. She has more things on her to do list for a day than 10 people could ever accomplish in a week kinda thing, I guess. She had a perfect plan and you screwed that perfect plan up. She had not plan B. That makes you so malevolent. However, it has nothing to do with what you do or don't do that lets her freak out. She would have found something else if the cheese wasn't the issue, maybe the way you breathe or walk or whatever. ;D I was sort of going to say this. Sometimes, as a woman, I just get angry and it doesn't matter what the issue is I can't control it. Having a hubby that just apologises is great, not saying I need a pushover but those bloody hormones can sometimes take over, the anger arises, then a story...something like: 'he thinks I'm not capable'. Other times I'd be like, yeah no worries, you're the best for feeding the kids...see what I'm saying. I want to be clear I'm offering an opinion here. Generally, hormonal changes make a woman more emotionally sensitive. This heightened emotional sense can, and usually does, go both ways, but to be highly attuned and responsive on a feeling level is neither good nor bad. What makes it explosive is the dynamics that are normally more or less kept beneath the surface. Hencely, not all women will respond the same way to the same hormonal influences. To a large degree, the response is indicative of how conscious one is. Marie may be able to clarify or correct, but my experience with her during hormonal changes was that, for the most part, she remained as the observer. Not interfering with the feeling that would arise, but also not unconsciously looking for someone or something to blame. In the end, feelings are just feelings. They don't really imply somebody has done something wrong. ;D    |
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Post by humphrey on Jan 18, 2013 10:24:19 GMT -8
She may have felt frustrated in not being able to nurture the kids as she had planned with the yummy pizza -well at least this was my initial reaction but I am aware I am projecting. I feel very content and in a loving space when preparing a meal, but not every woman (or man) feels the way I do. Being in a relationship where there are no expectations has ironically led to meeting all my 'needs'. I told Phil today when we were discussing relationships, that not once in the years we have been together have I questioned whether I am happy with him or not, it's a given I am, so the question doesn't occur to me. I realized with more clarity today that when we are not creating separation with expectations, the mind does not have anything to latch on in order to for to confirm something is 'wrong' with our partner and that he/she needs to change . Right-nice post, sufilight.  The first couple of sentences brought something to the surface that applies to many - self included - where the situation may have brought up a competition of sorts - one parent feels inferior for what-ever reasons (insecurity, unaired resentments, etc.) and the dad gets to look better in the kids' eyes because his meals were nice and cheesy and she's facing looking at the prospect of serving her kids less than full cheeziness on her pizza. I hope that makes at least some sense - it could play into the dynamic that's happening there. That is a dynamic that has played out in other situations, but I don't think it fits in this one. I made the cheesy eggs for her too, and she's been one of the biggest fans of them. Interestingly, during the heat of the cheese spat, I checked the freezer and found another bag. I put it on the table and said something like "look" which she immediately took as me interrupting her (true). "But it's relevant" I said. Too late, another notch in my criminal interrupting ledger. I asked her last night if she had enough cheese for the pizza and she said yea it was no problem. I'm of course under no illusion that 'no problem' means nothing other than successful pizza. The crime is still: you don't appreciate me enough, especially how I suffer so much. I look forward to talking to her about it, actually, though I'm expecting to be reamed out some more. |
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Post by humphrey on Jan 18, 2013 10:26:59 GMT -8
Clear signs of overwhelment, Hump. She has more things on her to do list for a day than 10 people could ever accomplish in a week kinda thing, I guess. She had a perfect plan and you screwed that perfect plan up. She had not plan B. That makes you so malevolent. However, it has nothing to do with what you do or don't do that lets her freak out. She would have found something else if the cheese wasn't the issue, maybe the way you breathe or walk or whatever. ;D I was sort of going to say this. Sometimes, as a woman, I just get angry and it doesn't matter what the issue is I can't control it. Having a hubby that just apologises is great, not saying I need a pushover but those bloody hormones can sometimes take over, the anger arises, then a story...something like: 'he thinks I'm not capable'. Other times I'd be like, yeah no worries, you're the best for feeding the kids...see what I'm saying. An old long-married happy couple I know gave me advice when we got married: "Yes Dear, Whatever You Say Dear." While it's bugged me, my wife loves it. |
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Post by silvery1 on Jan 18, 2013 10:47:02 GMT -8
Right-nice post, sufilight. The first couple of sentences brought something to the surface that applies to many - self included - where the situation may have brought up a competition of sorts - one parent feels inferior for what-ever reasons (insecurity, unaired resentments, etc.) and the dad gets to look better in the kids' eyes because his meals were nice and cheesy and she's facing looking at the prospect of serving her kids less than full cheeziness on her pizza. I hope that makes at least some sense - it could play into the dynamic that's happening there. That is a dynamic that has played out in other situations, but I don't think it fits in this one. I made the cheesy eggs for her too, and she's been one of the biggest fans of them. Interestingly, during the heat of the cheese spat, I checked the freezer and found another bag. I put it on the table and said something like "look" which she immediately took as me interrupting her (true). "But it's relevant" I said. Too late, another notch in my criminal interrupting ledger. I asked her last night if she had enough cheese for the pizza and she said yea it was no problem. I'm of course under no illusion that 'no problem' means nothing other than successful pizza. The crime is still: you don't appreciate me enough, especially how I suffer so much. I look forward to talking to her about it, actually, though I'm expecting to be reamed out some more. Mmm. Yeah seems your timing was just a tad off (along with the delivery style, perhaps) on presenting the newly discovered cheese right under both your noses. Then, I suppose one could say you took your mistake in attitude one step further by assuming all won't be well in the near future, by thinking to yourself that there's still unresolved stuff - unless there is, lol. This may take some serious looking internally for what is going on with this unpleasant dynamic that keeps playing out in your lives together. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2013 10:47:22 GMT -8
That's a great example of expectations taking over. In addition to the external dialog, one can almost hear the internal dialog that led to it as well: 'Wait....so you just do whatever you want and disregard what I say and what I need? And you're not even sorry? You just casually add it to the shopping list as though you haven't dismissed me entirely. You know we're going to keep talking about this until it's clear that you're taking me deadly seriously and that you admit I clearly told you about the cheese and that you are truly sorry. You obviously think this house runs by itself and nothing I do or say is important. You never listen to me. Nothing I say is important. This is NOT going to happen again!' Of course you know I'm just making it up, so apologies for any and all mischaracterizations, but the drama wouldn't be uncommon. This is why I say 'come empty'. There may well be years of unfulfilled expectations behind that empty cheese container, so it's not even about that. That's just the straw that broke the giraffes back. Yes, sometimes it feels like this the reasons being given (I used cheese = I don't appreciate the stress in her life) are really just an opportunity to let off steam. Unfortunately I don't see the steam being let out as reducing any internal pressure. I wish I could finance a month long spa vacation, a single income family (me), a housecleaner, etc. I think this is the elephant in the head. Not sure if it's constructive to broach this as a possibility. It's a good if. I'm still working on my own. Right, your own is all you CAN work on. Any work you do on your wife would be more expectations. Mayhaps we could say understanding is the first step, not really as an expression but as clarity on your part. In most situations, the concern expressed has nothing to do with what is complained about. Look and see what's really going on and respond with that understanding. When she says 'You knew about it because we discussed it', you might start hearing, 'I don't feel like I'm being listened to'. When she says 'Why did you use the cheese', you might hear, 'I don't feel appreciated'. It doesn't mean you necessarily need to fulfill her unspoken expectations, just avoid adding your own. You care about what she feels and she's doing the best she can with what she has, so you can begin to create a 'space' where she can begin to feel understood and safe. It's very likely that she'll step into that 'space' with you. When I say 'come empty', I'm really talking about creating that space devoid of expectations. Folks respond to that space because that space is Love. |
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burt
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Post by burt on Jan 18, 2013 10:51:23 GMT -8
I'll never forget the first time I noticed the silent internal expression of ... "who's this 'piece of sh!t' she's referring to?" ... get answered with ( __________________) right as my wife was goin' off on me full bore. Since then, expressed in Tolle-speak, the frequency and amplitude of the resonances of our pain bodies has diminished and continues to attenuate over time. Also, since then, I've witnessed frustration, rage and anger expressed at burt apparently get returned by burt with what a characterizer might characterize as "various strategies". It's never about the cheese, but, when on the surface at least, it is about the cheese .... hey, it's about the cheese ffs. Without kids over here, those times when the "viel of the cheese" falls away there arise opportunities to address the underlying expectations more openly ... perhaps more frequently given the greater privacy. Yes it's such a pressure cooker right now, there ain't even time to figure out ways to turn down the dial. We saw each other for a total of 20 minutes yesterday -- 15 of which involved arguing over the aforementioned cheese. The remaining 5 were literally passing in the night. I think even less well when angry. But pretending not to be is still worse. Well when it's not about the cheese what it's really about is the attention that you pay to her. When you can't resort to quantity you've got no choice but to try to compensate with quality. I'll go check out in the bunny-holes for the lost ski's and let you know what I find. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2013 10:57:31 GMT -8
She may have felt frustrated in not being able to nurture the kids as she had planned with the yummy pizza -well at least this was my initial reaction but I am aware I am projecting. I feel very content and in a loving space when preparing a meal, but not every woman (or man) feels the way I do. Being in a relationship where there are no expectations has ironically led to meeting all my 'needs'. I told Phil today when we were discussing relationships, that not once in the years we have been together have I questioned whether I am happy with him or not, it's a given I am, so the question doesn't occur to me. I realized with more clarity today, that when we are not creating separation with expectations, the mind does not have anything to latch on in order to for to confirm something is 'wrong' with our partner and that he/she needs to change. Yes, expectations seem like an outgrowth of something else. They are the cards upon which a house is built. Not really. The expectations are the result of the belief that the other is there to fulfill our expectations. The focus on need leads to the experience of needing something. Need nothing and nothing is needed. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2013 11:00:00 GMT -8
Clear signs of overwhelment, Hump. She has more things on her to do list for a day than 10 people could ever accomplish in a week kinda thing, I guess. She had a perfect plan and you screwed that perfect plan up. She had not plan B. That makes you so malevolent. However, it has nothing to do with what you do or don't do that lets her freak out. She would have found something else if the cheese wasn't the issue, maybe the way you breathe or walk or whatever. ;D I'm sure my walking is really annoying right now as it resembles someone shuffling about on thin cracking ice. The event this morning was the missing children's skis. uh oh. I have no memory of where I put them, if I put them somewhere. Enigma's right, this could be my own mind's conspiracy of forgetting to spark some sort of dramatic crash of the house of cards. It'll cost $60 to rent. oy vey. I'm hoping some of those blasted gnomes took 'em. If y'all don't hear from me again, my fate might be: skewered by ski pole. Don't let her use a rented ski pole. They charge extra for cleaning. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2013 11:04:49 GMT -8
Right-nice post, sufilight. The first couple of sentences brought something to the surface that applies to many - self included - where the situation may have brought up a competition of sorts - one parent feels inferior for what-ever reasons (insecurity, unaired resentments, etc.) and the dad gets to look better in the kids' eyes because his meals were nice and cheesy and she's facing looking at the prospect of serving her kids less than full cheeziness on her pizza. I hope that makes at least some sense - it could play into the dynamic that's happening there. That is a dynamic that has played out in other situations, but I don't think it fits in this one. I made the cheesy eggs for her too, and she's been one of the biggest fans of them. Interestingly, during the heat of the cheese spat, I checked the freezer and found another bag. I put it on the table and said something like "look" which she immediately took as me interrupting her (true). "But it's relevant" I said. Too late, another notch in my criminal interrupting ledger. I asked her last night if she had enough cheese for the pizza and she said yea it was no problem. I'm of course under no illusion that 'no problem' means nothing other than successful pizza. The crime is still: you don't appreciate me enough, especially how I suffer so much. I look forward to talking to her about it, actually, though I'm expecting to be reamed out some more. Right, instant cheese manifestation doesn't change much cuz it wasn't about cheese to begin with. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2013 11:08:38 GMT -8
I was sort of going to say this. Sometimes, as a woman, I just get angry and it doesn't matter what the issue is I can't control it. Having a hubby that just apologises is great, not saying I need a pushover but those bloody hormones can sometimes take over, the anger arises, then a story...something like: 'he thinks I'm not capable'. Other times I'd be like, yeah no worries, you're the best for feeding the kids...see what I'm saying. An old long-married happy couple I know gave me advice when we got married: "Yes Dear, Whatever You Say Dear." While it's bugged me, my wife loves it. Which makes you resentful and causes you to 'forget' more stuff. |
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Post by humphrey on Jan 18, 2013 11:40:03 GMT -8
Yes, sometimes it feels like this the reasons being given (I used cheese = I don't appreciate the stress in her life) are really just an opportunity to let off steam. Unfortunately I don't see the steam being let out as reducing any internal pressure. I wish I could finance a month long spa vacation, a single income family (me), a housecleaner, etc. I think this is the elephant in the head. Not sure if it's constructive to broach this as a possibility. It's a good if. I'm still working on my own. Right, your own is all you CAN work on. Any work you do on your wife would be more expectations. Mayhaps we could say understanding is the first step, not really as an expression but as clarity on your part. In most situations, the concern expressed has nothing to do with what is complained about. Look and see what's really going on and respond with that understanding. When she says 'You knew about it because we discussed it', you might start hearing, 'I don't feel like I'm being listened to'. When she says 'Why did you use the cheese', you might hear, 'I don't feel appreciated'. It doesn't mean you necessarily need to fulfill her unspoken expectations, just avoid adding your own. You care about what she feels and she's doing the best she can with what she has, so you can begin to create a 'space' where she can begin to feel understood and safe. It's very likely that she'll step into that 'space' with you. When I say 'come empty', I'm really talking about creating that space devoid of expectations. Folks respond to that space because that space is Love. I'm totally on board with this. And it's generally what I try to do. Methinks I'm not doin something right, though, because it's challenging and sometimes a struggle. We're going to talk about the cheese incident sometime this weekend. Probably the skis caper will be thrown in there too. I want to address her concerns about being under-appreciated. Another couple advised once "You are responsible for your own happiness." That one hits closer to the mark for me. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2013 12:58:30 GMT -8
Right, your own is all you CAN work on. Any work you do on your wife would be more expectations. Mayhaps we could say understanding is the first step, not really as an expression but as clarity on your part. In most situations, the concern expressed has nothing to do with what is complained about. Look and see what's really going on and respond with that understanding. When she says 'You knew about it because we discussed it', you might start hearing, 'I don't feel like I'm being listened to'. When she says 'Why did you use the cheese', you might hear, 'I don't feel appreciated'. It doesn't mean you necessarily need to fulfill her unspoken expectations, just avoid adding your own. You care about what she feels and she's doing the best she can with what she has, so you can begin to create a 'space' where she can begin to feel understood and safe. It's very likely that she'll step into that 'space' with you. When I say 'come empty', I'm really talking about creating that space devoid of expectations. Folks respond to that space because that space is Love. I'm totally on board with this. And it's generally what I try to do. Methinks I'm not doin something right, though, because it's challenging and sometimes a struggle. We're going to talk about the cheese incident sometime this weekend. Probably the skis caper will be thrown in there too. I want to address her concerns about being under-appreciated. Another couple advised once "You are responsible for your own happiness." That one hits closer to the mark for me. The discussion this weekend may be useful or not. I would not want to talk about cheese or skis, but I might be willing to acknowledge everything she does and listen carefully to her concerns. I might not be willing to fulfill or her needs and solve her problems, but I would be willing to understand them. |
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Post by silence on Jan 18, 2013 21:35:51 GMT -8
I was sort of going to say this. Sometimes, as a woman, I just get angry and it doesn't matter what the issue is I can't control it. Having a hubby that just apologises is great, not saying I need a pushover but those bloody hormones can sometimes take over, the anger arises, then a story...something like: 'he thinks I'm not capable'. Other times I'd be like, yeah no worries, you're the best for feeding the kids...see what I'm saying. I want to be clear I'm offering an opinion here. Generally, hormonal changes make a woman more emotionally sensitive. This heightened emotional sense can, and usually does, go both ways, but to be highly attuned and responsive on a feeling level is neither good nor bad. What makes it explosive is the dynamics that are normally more or less kept beneath the surface. Hencely, not all women will respond the same way to the same hormonal influences. To a large degree, the response is indicative of how conscious one is. Marie may be able to clarify or correct, but my experience with her during hormonal changes was that, for the most part, she remained as the observer. Not interfering with the feeling that would arise, but also not unconsciously looking for someone or something to blame. In the end, feelings are just feelings. They don't really imply somebody has done something wrong. ;D It's a good thing you're on your own forum here where the villagers can't storm the castle! ;D |
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