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Post by Reefs on Mar 6, 2013 4:21:34 GMT -8
This is the discussion thread for "The Daily HWL Poonja". Here you can post your comments about Papaji or anything else related.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 6, 2013 4:28:58 GMT -8
Visitor: Why do my night dreams constantly change, but not this world dream of the waking state?
Papaji: They both change, the difference is that while in the dream you don't say that it is changing. Only when you wake up can you see that it changes from one dream to another. The waking state dream also changes. Today is different than tomorrow or yesterday. This state is real only because you call it real and have this conviction of its reality. But during a dream you don't call a dream a dream. Only when you wake up can you say that it was a dream. In the night dream you see rivers, mountains, people, and relations. In this dream you see the same thing so how can you call one real and the other unreal? You have the conviction it will be a dream. You don't look at the dreamer, who also is your own creation. The dreamer is different than the dream so now find out who is the dreamer. The dreamer and the dream objects are all the same. Now find out who dreamed, who is dreaming. Find the 'me' who has dreamed. Find this now and waking, dreaming and sleeping will disappear. What you call reality is not Reality. That's a subtlety that often goes unnoticed. The waking state is seen as stable and unchanging and only the dream state in sleep is seen as illusory. But that's only a conclusion based on a flawed premise. |
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Post by Gopal on Mar 6, 2013 8:47:18 GMT -8
Reef,
But there are lot of difference between dream world and waking world, Dream world doesn't follow sequence, you seems to be inside the theater and when you turn left you could see your kitchen, there is no sequence follows, but in real world, sequence is strictly followed. Another difference is that people in your dream world is not real, but the people in your waking world is real like you or they are also perceiver not focused objects.
RAJ
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Post by Reefs on Mar 7, 2013 6:53:33 GMT -8
But there are lot of difference between dream world and waking world, Dream world doesn't follow sequence, you seems to be inside the theater and when you turn left you could see your kitchen, there is no sequence follows, but in real world, sequence is strictly followed. Another difference is that people in your dream world is not real, but the people in your waking world is real like you or they are also perceiver not focused objects.
When you are dreaming, do you know that you are dreaming? When you're dreaming, does that dream world and all the dream figures in it feel like they have just been randomly created or does it feel as if that world has always been there and some kind of history? What's your identity in your dream world? Does your identity in your dream world feel like you've just adopted it a few minutes ago or does it feel genuine as if it has been your identity since years? What do you know about the waking world while you are dreaming? |
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Post by enigma on Mar 7, 2013 16:41:11 GMT -8
But there are lot of difference between dream world and waking world, Dream world doesn't follow sequence, you seems to be inside the theater and when you turn left you could see your kitchen, there is no sequence follows, but in real world, sequence is strictly followed. Another difference is that people in your dream world is not real, but the people in your waking world is real like you or they are also perceiver not focused objects.
When you are dreaming, do you know that you are dreaming? When you're dreaming, does that dream world and all the dream figures in it feel like they have just been randomly created or does it feel as if that world has always been there and some kind of history? What's your identity in your dream world? Does your identity in your dream world feel like you've just adopted it a few minutes ago or does it feel genuine as if it has been your identity since years? What do you know about the waking world while you are dreaming? Yeah, all the perceptions of the unreality or non sequiturs in the dream world are made only from the waking state. The dream world is made (by the mind) as convincing as it needs to be (to the mind), which is an odd and fascinating thing. It's clear that mind deceives itself with it's own imaginings in the dream state because the waking state is more demanding, and from that state the self deception can be seen. Likewise, from an 'Awakened' state, the self deception of the normal waking state can be seen, but not from within the waking state. Why the mind deceives itself is not very mysterious, as maintaining the illusion becomes a priority for the experiencer, but how mind pulls off a self deception is quite mysterious indeed. |
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Post by Reefs on Mar 9, 2013 9:28:46 GMT -8
The right way to inquire is to ask "Who am I?" and "Where does the inquiry come from?" "Where does the inquiry come from?" - excellent question! Mucho betterer than "Who am I?" I dare to say...  |
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Post by sufilight on Mar 10, 2013 0:47:51 GMT -8
The right way to inquire is to ask "Who am I?" and "Where does the inquiry come from?" "Where does the inquiry come from?" - excellent question! Mucho betterer than "Who am I?" I dare to say... Si, es definitivamente mucho bettererer.  I want to play and explore this. As I closed my eyes and asked "who am I?" followed by "where does the inquiry come from?," I was able to see that there is no "who" or "I" ... so the question gets answered by the mind which would be another illusion. Sooo, where does this inquiry come from? It comes from the mind as there is only Existence Itself that gives rise to this inquiry ... No wonder Phil doesn't seem to encourage asking "who am I!" |
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Post by sufilight on Mar 10, 2013 0:54:37 GMT -8
When you are dreaming, do you know that you are dreaming? When you're dreaming, does that dream world and all the dream figures in it feel like they have just been randomly created or does it feel as if that world has always been there and some kind of history? What's your identity in your dream world? Does your identity in your dream world feel like you've just adopted it a few minutes ago or does it feel genuine as if it has been your identity since years? What do you know about the waking world while you are dreaming? Yeah, all the perceptions of the unreality or non sequiturs in the dream world are made only from the waking state. The dream world is made (by the mind) as convincing as it needs to be (to the mind), which is an odd and fascinating thing. It's clear that mind deceives itself with it's own imaginings in the dream state because the waking state is more demanding, and from that state the self deception can be seen. Likewise, from an 'Awakened' state, the self deception of the normal waking state can be seen, but not from within the waking state. Why the mind deceives itself is not very mysterious, as maintaining the illusion becomes a priority for the experiencer, but how mind pulls off a self deception is quite mysterious indeed. Have you noticed that in the dream world we do not see our reflections or if we do, we don't look like our physical selves in waking life. The main identity is our emotional dynamics regarding the experience we are having in the dream. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 10, 2013 12:37:36 GMT -8
"Where does the inquiry come from?" - excellent question! Mucho betterer than "Who am I?" I dare to say... Si, es definitivamente mucho bettererer. I want to play and explore this. As I closed my eyes and asked "who am I?" followed by "where does the inquiry come from?," I was able to see that there is no "who" or "I" ... so the question gets answered by the mind which would be another illusion. Sooo, where does this inquiry come from? It comes from the mind as there is only Existence Itself that gives rise to this inquiry ... No wonder Phil doesn't seem to encourage asking "who am I!" Yup, yup. 'Who am I' can be a useful focus cuz it can lead to insights like that, but the problemo is that the question comes from the answer in that it presupposes you are 'somebody'. So mind goes off looking for it's new identity, which is necessarily a bigger and better identity. The result is either identifying with 'an awareness' or 'a oneness', or finding nothing at all, which is a better outcome. At that point, it can be useful to turn back around and ask where the question comes from and see that the question is misconceived, as you did. All questions are destined to be dissolved rather than answered, and so it's a good direction to go. You are life without a center or a circumference, which is not an identity that you can grasp, and so the idea is unlikely to cause harm. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 10, 2013 12:44:08 GMT -8
Yeah, all the perceptions of the unreality or non sequiturs in the dream world are made only from the waking state. The dream world is made (by the mind) as convincing as it needs to be (to the mind), which is an odd and fascinating thing. It's clear that mind deceives itself with it's own imaginings in the dream state because the waking state is more demanding, and from that state the self deception can be seen. Likewise, from an 'Awakened' state, the self deception of the normal waking state can be seen, but not from within the waking state. Why the mind deceives itself is not very mysterious, as maintaining the illusion becomes a priority for the experiencer, but how mind pulls off a self deception is quite mysterious indeed. Have you noticed that in the dream world we do not see our reflections or if we do, we don't look like our physical selves in waking life. The main identity is our emotional dynamics regarding the experience we are having in the dream. Interesante. I guess I never noticed seeing myself in a reflection in a dream. I have noticed that, in lucid dreams, I'm not in the body. I'm a little above and to the left and I'm watching my dream character too. I think that's true. There's more like an emotional self running around in the dream having primarily a feeling experience, which is why I refer to feelings in trying to interpret dreams. The purpose of the dreams seems to be the movement of these feelings. |
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Post by sufilight on Mar 10, 2013 17:10:21 GMT -8
Si, es definitivamente mucho bettererer. I want to play and explore this. As I closed my eyes and asked "who am I?" followed by "where does the inquiry come from?," I was able to see that there is no "who" or "I" ... so the question gets answered by the mind which would be another illusion. Sooo, where does this inquiry come from? It comes from the mind as there is only Existence Itself that gives rise to this inquiry ... No wonder Phil doesn't seem to encourage asking "who am I!" Yup, yup. 'Who am I' can be a useful focus cuz it can lead to insights like that, but the problemo is that the question comes from the answer in that it presupposes you are 'somebody'. So mind goes off looking for it's new identity, which is necessarily a bigger and better identity. The result is either identifying with 'an awareness' or 'a oneness', or finding nothing at all, which is a better outcome. At that point, it can be useful to turn back around and ask where the question comes from and see that the question is misconceived, as you did. All questions are destined to be dissolved rather than answered, and so it's a good direction to go. You are life without a center or a circumference, which is not an identity that you can grasp, and so the idea is unlikely to cause harm. Interesting, I was just looking at Jeff Foster's website a few minutes ago and it's called Life Without a Centre. Yes, the follow up question was very helpful for me as before I couldn't see why asking "who am I" was not potentially useful. Life without a center or circumference? A good topic for a squirrel satsang and sharing here.. |
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Post by sufilight on Mar 10, 2013 17:17:17 GMT -8
Have you noticed that in the dream world we do not see our reflections or if we do, we don't look like our physical selves in waking life. The main identity is our emotional dynamics regarding the experience we are having in the dream. Interesante. I guess I never noticed seeing myself in a reflection in a dream. I have noticed that, in lucid dreams, I'm not in the body. I'm a little above and to the left and I'm watching my dream character too. I think that's true. There's more like an emotional self running around in the dream having primarily a feeling experience, which is why I refer to feelings in trying to interpret dreams. The purpose of the dreams seems to be the movement of these feelings. Life, if we come to think of it, is also a feeling self running around, except the feelings in our waking dream are capable of creating and feels more tangible. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 10, 2013 19:53:07 GMT -8
Yup, yup. 'Who am I' can be a useful focus cuz it can lead to insights like that, but the problemo is that the question comes from the answer in that it presupposes you are 'somebody'. So mind goes off looking for it's new identity, which is necessarily a bigger and better identity. The result is either identifying with 'an awareness' or 'a oneness', or finding nothing at all, which is a better outcome. At that point, it can be useful to turn back around and ask where the question comes from and see that the question is misconceived, as you did. All questions are destined to be dissolved rather than answered, and so it's a good direction to go. You are life without a center or a circumference, which is not an identity that you can grasp, and so the idea is unlikely to cause harm. Interesting, I was just looking at Jeff Foster's website a few minutes ago and it's called Life Without a Centre. Yes, the follow up question was very helpful for me as before I couldn't see why asking "who am I" was not potentially useful. Life without a center or circumference? A good topic for a squirrel satsang and sharing here.. Okay. I'll email the squirrels so's they can prepare questions.  |
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Post by enigma on Mar 10, 2013 19:56:53 GMT -8
Interesante. I guess I never noticed seeing myself in a reflection in a dream. I have noticed that, in lucid dreams, I'm not in the body. I'm a little above and to the left and I'm watching my dream character too. I think that's true. There's more like an emotional self running around in the dream having primarily a feeling experience, which is why I refer to feelings in trying to interpret dreams. The purpose of the dreams seems to be the movement of these feelings. Life, if we come to think of it, is also a feeling self running around, except the feelings in our waking dream are capable of creating and feels more tangible. I'd say our feelings are doing all the creating in our dream state. Or did you mean sumthin else? |
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Post by sufilight on Mar 10, 2013 21:55:05 GMT -8
Interesting, I was just looking at Jeff Foster's website a few minutes ago and it's called Life Without a Centre. Yes, the follow up question was very helpful for me as before I couldn't see why asking "who am I" was not potentially useful. Life without a center or circumference? A good topic for a squirrel satsang and sharing here.. Okay. I'll email the squirrels so's they can prepare questions. Cool! |
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