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Post by spongey on Feb 14, 2013 4:02:13 GMT -8
Talk about piss on my parade! The nagging voice was part of your parade? Lol...I know I know. I guess this is where it gets 'circle-ish'. As in going around in...thoughts interupt or come in straight away, saying something or other, I have to say it didn't bother me so much today. We'll see...
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Post by relinquish on Feb 14, 2013 14:06:56 GMT -8
Yes. Specifically, I'd say the reason for the contradictions is that there are two perspectives being communicated; the perspective from within the illusion that must speak in the language of illusion (minds, persons, paths, choices), and the perspective from which the entire illusion is seen through and is not really true or meaningful to talk about. These perspectives are in different contexts, and the larger context transcends and contradicts the smaller context. The larger context would always sound like gibberish to the one fully caught in illusion, but the one beginning to see through the illusion will see the truth of it, so different contexts are appropriate for different folks. One must always consider that the teacher's message may only be for the particular student he's talking to. Yep nail on head. What I realise is that as seekers we can not but help to tune into ideas of what 'enlightenment' should feel like. You hear terms like 'oneness' and 'all is this' and you think well I don't see it. Then real confusion sets in as you listen to various teachings. For instance for me hearing 'I am that'. I for one have kept thinking, well what is it I'm missing? On top of that comes desire. It's strong. Desire to improve ones life, when actually there is absolutely nothing to improve. For me, also I was holding onto the idea that I should be moving around without the idea of a 'controller' as this is a belief I kept hearing I needed to stop believing, and I haven't experienced this (although really I have probably several times a day). But actually, so what if I do hold the idea that I'm in here controlling it? Who cares? It's so simple that thought can't touch it. How could it? As soon as there's a thought it's not it! Now I see why I've been round and round in circles! I'm not sure the internet has actually helped or not? You just have to turn away from thought. In fact why don't 'they' (that famous 'they') ban the word enlightenment? Are animals enlightened? No, of course not. What a joke? What on earth have I been looking for? Yet...there remains a persistent 'no this isn't it' nagging voice. See if you can find out EXACTLY where that nagging voice is coming from. It it really true? Maybe the 'speaker' of the voice is simply mistaken. Is that not a possibility?
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Post by silence on Feb 14, 2013 14:52:55 GMT -8
On top of that comes desire. It's strong. Desire to improve ones life, when actually there is absolutely nothing to improve. Improve your life all you want. Just recognize that this process of improvement doesn't have anything to do with peace and contentment or evolving a better you. That peace is being obscured with all the struggle and the attention given to it. Money and food and clothing and housing ARE still revelant whether you're the most transcendent being or not. For me, also I was holding onto the idea that I should be moving around without the idea of a 'controller' as this is a belief I kept hearing I needed to stop believing, and I haven't experienced this (although really I have probably several times a day). But actually, so what if I do hold the idea that I'm in here controlling it? Who cares? It's really the way you're hearing things that is causing the confusion. Talking about control is an invitation to look in a way that isn't thought thinking about other thoughts to see if there's really a life thing operating most of the body and then a you stashed away in there like 2 midgets on top of each other partially controlling the body and mind. Most self help material is about giving you a better way to live your life. If you're trying to ascertain what's true through the lens of life coaching, you're just going to end up with all sorts of mixed up information.
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wren
Member
Posts: 17
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Post by wren on Feb 14, 2013 15:52:00 GMT -8
Improve your life all you want. Just recognize that this process of improvement doesn't have anything to do with peace and contentment or evolving a better you. That peace is being obscured with all the struggle and the attention given to it. Say this again please. Even clearer this time.
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Post by spongey on Feb 14, 2013 17:58:29 GMT -8
On top of that comes desire. It's strong. Desire to improve ones life, when actually there is absolutely nothing to improve. Improve your life all you want. Just recognize that this process of improvement doesn't have anything to do with peace and contentment or evolving a better you. That peace is being obscured with all the struggle and the attention given to it. Money and food and clothing and housing ARE still revelant whether you're the most transcendent being or not. For me, also I was holding onto the idea that I should be moving around without the idea of a 'controller' as this is a belief I kept hearing I needed to stop believing, and I haven't experienced this (although really I have probably several times a day). But actually, so what if I do hold the idea that I'm in here controlling it? Who cares? It's really the way you're hearing things that is causing the confusion. Talking about control is an invitation to look in a way that isn't thought thinking about other thoughts to see if there's really a life thing operating most of the body and then a you stashed away in there like 2 midgets on top of each other partially controlling the body and mind. Most self help material is about giving you a better way to live your life. If you're trying to ascertain what's true through the lens of life coaching, you're just going to end up with all sorts of mixed up information. Yep I do get that first bit. Life carries on and know why people say not to expect anything to change. I agree in part with your second part of the post. I still think there are a lot of different teachings, people saying different things and sm not refering to self-help, can't think of examples right now but when I do I'll post what I mean.
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Post by spongey on Feb 14, 2013 17:59:10 GMT -8
Yep nail on head. What I realise is that as seekers we can not but help to tune into ideas of what 'enlightenment' should feel like. You hear terms like 'oneness' and 'all is this' and you think well I don't see it. Then real confusion sets in as you listen to various teachings. For instance for me hearing 'I am that'. I for one have kept thinking, well what is it I'm missing? On top of that comes desire. It's strong. Desire to improve ones life, when actually there is absolutely nothing to improve. For me, also I was holding onto the idea that I should be moving around without the idea of a 'controller' as this is a belief I kept hearing I needed to stop believing, and I haven't experienced this (although really I have probably several times a day). But actually, so what if I do hold the idea that I'm in here controlling it? Who cares? It's so simple that thought can't touch it. How could it? As soon as there's a thought it's not it! Now I see why I've been round and round in circles! I'm not sure the internet has actually helped or not? You just have to turn away from thought. In fact why don't 'they' (that famous 'they') ban the word enlightenment? Are animals enlightened? No, of course not. What a joke? What on earth have I been looking for? Yet...there remains a persistent 'no this isn't it' nagging voice. See if you can find out EXACTLY where that nagging voice is coming from. It it really true? Maybe the 'speaker' of the voice is simply mistaken. Is that not a possibility? That's what I've been doing for quite a while now.
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Post by relinquish on Feb 15, 2013 0:12:16 GMT -8
See if you can find out EXACTLY where that nagging voice is coming from. It it really true? Maybe the 'speaker' of the voice is simply mistaken. Is that not a possibility? That's what I've been doing for quite a while now. Even if you can't find the origination of the voice, is it really possible for what it says to be true? If so, how so?
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Post by Reefs on Feb 15, 2013 3:14:29 GMT -8
That's what I've been doing for quite a while now. Even if you can't find the origination of the voice, is it really possible for what it says to be true? If so, how so? Does the nagging voice make any sense?
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Post by spongey on Feb 15, 2013 5:24:36 GMT -8
Even if you can't find the origination of the voice, is it really possible for what it says to be true? If so, how so? Does the nagging voice make any sense? No, who's the nagging voice nagging?
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Post by Reefs on Feb 15, 2013 6:26:54 GMT -8
No, who's the nagging voice nagging? Hm. a) Someone naggable? b) Apparently someone naggable? c) Someone apparently naggable? d) Apparently someone apparently naggable? e) Nagging happens? f) Neither nor?
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Post by enigma on Feb 15, 2013 13:46:38 GMT -8
Yes. Specifically, I'd say the reason for the contradictions is that there are two perspectives being communicated; the perspective from within the illusion that must speak in the language of illusion (minds, persons, paths, choices), and the perspective from which the entire illusion is seen through and is not really true or meaningful to talk about. These perspectives are in different contexts, and the larger context transcends and contradicts the smaller context. The larger context would always sound like gibberish to the one fully caught in illusion, but the one beginning to see through the illusion will see the truth of it, so different contexts are appropriate for different folks. One must always consider that the teacher's message may only be for the particular student he's talking to. Yep nail on head. What I realise is that as seekers we can not but help to tune into ideas of what 'enlightenment' should feel like. You hear terms like 'oneness' and 'all is this' and you think well I don't see it. Then real confusion sets in as you listen to various teachings. For instance for me hearing 'I am that'. I for one have kept thinking, well what is it I'm missing? On top of that comes desire. It's strong. Desire to improve ones life, when actually there is absolutely nothing to improve. For me, also I was holding onto the idea that I should be moving around without the idea of a 'controller' as this is a belief I kept hearing I needed to stop believing, and I haven't experienced this (although really I have probably several times a day). But actually, so what if I do hold the idea that I'm in here controlling it? Who cares? It's so simple that thought can't touch it. How could it? As soon as there's a thought it's not it! Now I see why I've been round and round in circles! I'm not sure the internet has actually helped or not? You just have to turn away from thought. In fact why don't 'they' (that famous 'they') ban the word enlightenment? Are animals enlightened? No, of course not. What a joke? What on earth have I been looking for? Yet...there remains a persistent 'no this isn't it' nagging voice. I understand. The animals haven't dug themselves into a belief hole that they can't get out of, so there's no need for enlightenment or to question beliefs and such, but for you there is. It doesn't work to grasp the idea that thoughts don't change what you are and ultimately don't interfere. You have to actually know that, and so you have to see through the illusion. That's why there is a path and yet there is no path. The path doesn't take you to somewhere you aren't already, but it may uncover what is already here. I don't see value in trying to see what you are. This is always going to be mind trying to see what mind cannot see. The focus is on seeing what is not so, and since it is mind that conceptualized what is not so, based on false evidence or no evidence, it's possible for mind to see what it actually did.
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Post by enigma on Feb 15, 2013 13:52:01 GMT -8
Yes. Specifically, I'd say the reason for the contradictions is that there are two perspectives being communicated; the perspective from within the illusion that must speak in the language of illusion (minds, persons, paths, choices), and the perspective from which the entire illusion is seen through and is not really true or meaningful to talk about. These perspectives are in different contexts, and the larger context transcends and contradicts the smaller context. The larger context would always sound like gibberish to the one fully caught in illusion, but the one beginning to see through the illusion will see the truth of it, so different contexts are appropriate for different folks. One must always consider that the teacher's message may only be for the particular student he's talking to. That's why comparing quotes is for the time 'after' the realization, not for the time 'before' the realization. A true realization ends all doubts about spiritual matters. Comparing quotes without seeing clearly only adds to the confusion and leads to strange theories and practices. Yup. At the very least there can be the understanding of context and some allowance for the flexibility of the teacher. That understanding would also help with a lot of discussion nonsense in which peeps are talking at each other in different contexts.
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Post by enigma on Feb 15, 2013 13:54:27 GMT -8
Conclusions can give you some relief, but conclusions alone isn't doing it. Talk about piss on my parade! Think of it as a refreshing spring shower.
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Post by spongey on Feb 15, 2013 22:37:46 GMT -8
Yep nail on head. What I realise is that as seekers we can not but help to tune into ideas of what 'enlightenment' should feel like. You hear terms like 'oneness' and 'all is this' and you think well I don't see it. Then real confusion sets in as you listen to various teachings. For instance for me hearing 'I am that'. I for one have kept thinking, well what is it I'm missing? On top of that comes desire. It's strong. Desire to improve ones life, when actually there is absolutely nothing to improve. For me, also I was holding onto the idea that I should be moving around without the idea of a 'controller' as this is a belief I kept hearing I needed to stop believing, and I haven't experienced this (although really I have probably several times a day). But actually, so what if I do hold the idea that I'm in here controlling it? Who cares? It's so simple that thought can't touch it. How could it? As soon as there's a thought it's not it! Now I see why I've been round and round in circles! I'm not sure the internet has actually helped or not? You just have to turn away from thought. In fact why don't 'they' (that famous 'they') ban the word enlightenment? Are animals enlightened? No, of course not. What a joke? What on earth have I been looking for? Yet...there remains a persistent 'no this isn't it' nagging voice. I understand. The animals haven't dug themselves into a belief hole that they can't get out of, so there's no need for enlightenment or to question beliefs and such, but for you there is. It doesn't work to grasp the idea that thoughts don't change what you are and ultimately don't interfere. You have to actually know that, and so you have to see through the illusion. That's why there is a path and yet there is no path. The path doesn't take you to somewhere you aren't already, but it may uncover what is already here. I don't see value in trying to see what you are. This is always going to be mind trying to see what mind cannot see. The focus is on seeing what is not so, and since it is mind that conceptualized what is not so, based on false evidence or no evidence, it's possible for mind to see what it actually did. Ok I give up!
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Post by relinquish on Feb 16, 2013 1:29:10 GMT -8
I understand. The animals haven't dug themselves into a belief hole that they can't get out of, so there's no need for enlightenment or to question beliefs and such, but for you there is. It doesn't work to grasp the idea that thoughts don't change what you are and ultimately don't interfere. You have to actually know that, and so you have to see through the illusion. That's why there is a path and yet there is no path. The path doesn't take you to somewhere you aren't already, but it may uncover what is already here. I don't see value in trying to see what you are. This is always going to be mind trying to see what mind cannot see. The focus is on seeing what is not so, and since it is mind that conceptualized what is not so, based on false evidence or no evidence, it's possible for mind to see what it actually did. Ok I give up! You'll NEVER know Peace with THAT attitude, Sponge!! Just keep looking. What have you got to loose?
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