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Post by humphrey on Feb 12, 2013 11:06:57 GMT -8
Well I haven't noticed the 'space so to speak opening up.' So it's only natural to read the messages in the bottles and wonder if I should be trying to notice something else. It'd be cool to relate my own story of frefalling into the abyss, but it looks like I might be on the McDonald's plan. There is a greater peace and ease these days; more tuned in to the lives of others around me. The practical, day to day stuff is in the foreground more. Sounds like PROGRESS!! How is greater peace and ease different than space opening up? I'm not talking about literal space opening up in your noggin. Greater peace and ease is something I'm familiar with. It comes and goes so I'm not real sure it's the same as the 'space' that I was imagining you were referring to... I was just chatting with a Tibetan Buddhist monk a couple days ago. It was nice because so far I haven't met anyone who has even heard of nondualism, much less Maharshi, Niz, Adyashanti, Mooji, Byron Katie, etc. Gave me faith that there are possibly other interested folks out there that aren't logged into an internet forum. I was saying that I liked the emphasis on inquiry. He was agreeing, and was saying any buddhist teacher worth their salt brings in inquiry. Also he's butted heads with his teachers around the overlap of advaita and noself and some of the other concepts in buddhism. Do I think it is more advanced? No. I don't really know what that means. The exposure I've had (via ST and countless books and podcasts and videos) agrees with my skepticism and disinterest in religions (including Buddhism) and I like some of the ideas. The notion that you are what is sought is excellent. If the Truth is always present, what's keeping you from being it?.... I got you until that last sentence.
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Post by spongey on Feb 12, 2013 13:39:07 GMT -8
I don't know how much of that makes sense but it actually doesn't matter. There's clearly frustration, confusion and a sense of getting nowhere. Mind says that's devestating and needs to be remedied. I say it's great news and welcome it with a smile. It's precisely that sense of futility that mind is itching to dismiss and immediately look past that holds the realization of your freedom. Stay quiet and stay with the futility. Had a feeling you'd say that. Looks like a chapter for E's book. Time to 'let go'.
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Post by silence on Feb 12, 2013 17:40:12 GMT -8
Greater peace and ease is something I'm familiar with. It comes and goes so I'm not real sure it's the same as the 'space' that I was imagining you were referring to... That's fine. Basically what I'm talking about is recognizing that attention is just skipping from one thing that's missing to the next. In terms of turning the attention back onto thought itself, clarity can cause thought patterns to vanish into thin air. Even if this brings more peace, thought can still butt in and say "hey that's not the peace that doesn't come and go" and now that's a problem too. I was just chatting with a Tibetan Buddhist monk a couple days ago. It was nice because so far I haven't met anyone who has even heard of nondualism, much less Maharshi, Niz, Adyashanti, Mooji, Byron Katie, etc. Gave me faith that there are possibly other interested folks out there that aren't logged into an internet forum. I was saying that I liked the emphasis on inquiry. He was agreeing, and was saying any buddhist teacher worth their salt brings in inquiry. Also he's butted heads with his teachers around the overlap of advaita and noself and some of the other concepts in buddhism. Do I think it is more advanced? No. I don't really know what that means. The exposure I've had (via ST and countless books and podcasts and videos) agrees with my skepticism and disinterest in religions (including Buddhism) and I like some of the ideas. The notion that you are what is sought is excellent. If the Truth is always present, what's keeping you from being it?.... I was just curious how you viewed your progression of spiritual interests. I'm not suggesting any one pursuit is more worthy or advanced. Internet forums are largely the domain of people hiding out or trying to work out emotional issues. If that doesn't sound like you, it's likely that you're going to have to dig through a lot of pseudo-therapy to find anything that really resonates with your situation. I got you until that last sentence. Sorry, the sentence is pretty cumbersome. I'm basically just saying that clarity is always right there, totally available in the same way as the air you breathe. You don't have to be a buddha or a jesus or have some earth shattering realization. The difficult part is that people seem to wait around for the mind to get in order. To stop posing questions, to stop casting doubt and rambling on about nonsense. There's an underlying sense of "I need to resolve these mind issues first" before I find my confidence. I don't know if that resonates or is totally disconnected from what's happening for you, but it does seem pretty common.
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Post by silence on Feb 12, 2013 18:01:57 GMT -8
I don't know how much of that makes sense but it actually doesn't matter. There's clearly frustration, confusion and a sense of getting nowhere. Mind says that's devestating and needs to be remedied. I say it's great news and welcome it with a smile. It's precisely that sense of futility that mind is itching to dismiss and immediately look past that holds the realization of your freedom. Stay quiet and stay with the futility. Had a feeling you'd say that. Looks like a chapter for E's book. Time to 'let go'. Heh, it's not as gloomy as it sounds. It can even just be a very sober casual noticing that the domain of thought in its entirety really isn't where you need to look for peace and happiness. It can't get much simpler than that.
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Post by spongey on Feb 12, 2013 20:30:21 GMT -8
Had a feeling you'd say that. Looks like a chapter for E's book. Time to 'let go'. Heh, it's not as gloomy as it sounds. It can even just be a very sober casual noticing that the domain of thought in its entirety really isn't where you need to look for peace and happiness. It can't get much simpler than that. Yep that sounds clear and simple. I can live with that. Why is there so much apparent contradiction in the teachings? Makes one feel like they're going round in circles!
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Post by silence on Feb 13, 2013 12:49:44 GMT -8
Heh, it's not as gloomy as it sounds. It can even just be a very sober casual noticing that the domain of thought in its entirety really isn't where you need to look for peace and happiness. It can't get much simpler than that. Yep that sounds clear and simple. I can live with that. Why is there so much apparent contradiction in the teachings? Makes one feel like they're going round in circles! Well, there isn't any core truth that's attempting to be transmitted in any way. There's just people saying whatever it seems needs to be heard at any given moment to dismiss whatever idea is being held. Theoretically, you could very likely listen to a teacher long enough to hear him/her say both "Discover your true self" and "There is no self to discover" or "mind is causing the problems, not you" and "There is no such thing as mind" and on and on. The question is how does someone stop looking to thought for answers, validation and and their sense of self. Typically they have to keep presenting new and better thoughts having each one shattered until enough light reveals that they're focusing on entirely the wrong "place" alltogether.
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Post by humphrey on Feb 13, 2013 14:18:44 GMT -8
I'm basically just saying that clarity is always right there, totally available in the same way as the air you breathe. You don't have to be a buddha or a jesus or have some earth shattering realization. The difficult part is that people seem to wait around for the mind to get in order. To stop posing questions, to stop casting doubt and rambling on about nonsense. There's an underlying sense of "I need to resolve these mind issues first" before I find my confidence. I don't know if that resonates or is totally disconnected from what's happening for you, but it does seem pretty common. Yea it resonates. It's a good combo there. I hesitate to write stuff -- hesitation built on doubt -- because I assume that I have to have it all figured out first. But actually, the good stuff doesn't come from that place of 'having figured it all out.' (It's a pretty mythical place anyway.)
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Post by silence on Feb 13, 2013 16:06:03 GMT -8
But actually, the good stuff doesn't come from that place of 'having figured it all out.' (It's a pretty mythical place anyway.) Yes. If you truly recognize that, then there's nothing more to say. Nothing more that needs to be done. The good stuff encompases all the terms that get tossed around in spirituality. Love, peace, clarity, truth. The funny thing is that sometimes it seems to me that people really do see this but life hasn't finished enjoying the game of pretend just yet. If you had all of eternity to find yourself over and over again, wouldn't you want to see how far you could push it?
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Post by enigma on Feb 13, 2013 19:54:04 GMT -8
Yep that sounds clear and simple. I can live with that. Why is there so much apparent contradiction in the teachings? Makes one feel like they're going round in circles! Well, there isn't any core truth that's attempting to be transmitted in any way. There's just people saying whatever it seems needs to be heard at any given moment to dismiss whatever idea is being held. Theoretically, you could very likely listen to a teacher long enough to hear him/her say both "Discover your true self" and "There is no self to discover" or "mind is causing the problems, not you" and "There is no such thing as mind" and on and on. The question is how does someone stop looking to thought for answers, validation and and their sense of self. Typically they have to keep presenting new and better thoughts having each one shattered until enough light reveals that they're focusing on entirely the wrong "place" alltogether. Yes. Specifically, I'd say the reason for the contradictions is that there are two perspectives being communicated; the perspective from within the illusion that must speak in the language of illusion (minds, persons, paths, choices), and the perspective from which the entire illusion is seen through and is not really true or meaningful to talk about. These perspectives are in different contexts, and the larger context transcends and contradicts the smaller context. The larger context would always sound like gibberish to the one fully caught in illusion, but the one beginning to see through the illusion will see the truth of it, so different contexts are appropriate for different folks. One must always consider that the teacher's message may only be for the particular student he's talking to.
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Post by enigma on Feb 13, 2013 20:06:05 GMT -8
But actually, the good stuff doesn't come from that place of 'having figured it all out.' (It's a pretty mythical place anyway.) Yes. If you truly recognize that, then there's nothing more to say. Nothing more that needs to be done. The good stuff encompases all the terms that get tossed around in spirituality. Love, peace, clarity, truth. The funny thing is that sometimes it seems to me that people really do see this but life hasn't finished enjoying the game of pretend just yet. If you had all of eternity to find yourself over and over again, wouldn't you want to see how far you could push it? Yup. Folks already know the truth, they just prefer to pretend they don't, and as we can see, it's a very simple matter to use mind to see what isn't there or to not see what is there, for as long as one is still getting something out of it. It makes the whole spearachual search look absurd and comical.
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Post by spongey on Feb 13, 2013 21:44:58 GMT -8
Well, there isn't any core truth that's attempting to be transmitted in any way. There's just people saying whatever it seems needs to be heard at any given moment to dismiss whatever idea is being held. Theoretically, you could very likely listen to a teacher long enough to hear him/her say both "Discover your true self" and "There is no self to discover" or "mind is causing the problems, not you" and "There is no such thing as mind" and on and on. The question is how does someone stop looking to thought for answers, validation and and their sense of self. Typically they have to keep presenting new and better thoughts having each one shattered until enough light reveals that they're focusing on entirely the wrong "place" alltogether. Yes. Specifically, I'd say the reason for the contradictions is that there are two perspectives being communicated; the perspective from within the illusion that must speak in the language of illusion (minds, persons, paths, choices), and the perspective from which the entire illusion is seen through and is not really true or meaningful to talk about. These perspectives are in different contexts, and the larger context transcends and contradicts the smaller context. The larger context would always sound like gibberish to the one fully caught in illusion, but the one beginning to see through the illusion will see the truth of it, so different contexts are appropriate for different folks. One must always consider that the teacher's message may only be for the particular student he's talking to. Yep nail on head. What I realise is that as seekers we can not but help to tune into ideas of what 'enlightenment' should feel like. You hear terms like 'oneness' and 'all is this' and you think well I don't see it. Then real confusion sets in as you listen to various teachings. For instance for me hearing 'I am that'. I for one have kept thinking, well what is it I'm missing? On top of that comes desire. It's strong. Desire to improve ones life, when actually there is absolutely nothing to improve. For me, also I was holding onto the idea that I should be moving around without the idea of a 'controller' as this is a belief I kept hearing I needed to stop believing, and I haven't experienced this (although really I have probably several times a day). But actually, so what if I do hold the idea that I'm in here controlling it? Who cares? It's so simple that thought can't touch it. How could it? As soon as there's a thought it's not it! Now I see why I've been round and round in circles! I'm not sure the internet has actually helped or not? You just have to turn away from thought. In fact why don't 'they' (that famous 'they') ban the word enlightenment? Are animals enlightened? No, of course not. What a joke? What on earth have I been looking for? Yet...there remains a persistent 'no this isn't it' nagging voice.
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Post by Reefs on Feb 14, 2013 0:08:28 GMT -8
Yes. Specifically, I'd say the reason for the contradictions is that there are two perspectives being communicated; the perspective from within the illusion that must speak in the language of illusion (minds, persons, paths, choices), and the perspective from which the entire illusion is seen through and is not really true or meaningful to talk about. These perspectives are in different contexts, and the larger context transcends and contradicts the smaller context. The larger context would always sound like gibberish to the one fully caught in illusion, but the one beginning to see through the illusion will see the truth of it, so different contexts are appropriate for different folks. One must always consider that the teacher's message may only be for the particular student he's talking to. That's why comparing quotes is for the time 'after' the realization, not for the time 'before' the realization. A true realization ends all doubts about spiritual matters. Comparing quotes without seeing clearly only adds to the confusion and leads to strange theories and practices.
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Post by Reefs on Feb 14, 2013 0:11:54 GMT -8
Yep nail on head. What I realise is that as seekers we can not but help to tune into ideas of what 'enlightenment' should feel like. You hear terms like 'oneness' and 'all is this' and you think well I don't see it. Then real confusion sets in as you listen to various teachings. For instance for me hearing 'I am that'. I for one have kept thinking, well what is it I'm missing?
On top of that comes desire. It's strong. Desire to improve ones life, when actually there is absolutely nothing to improve.
For me, also I was holding onto the idea that I should be moving around without the idea of a 'controller' as this is a belief I kept hearing I needed to stop believing, and I haven't experienced this (although really I have probably several times a day). But actually, so what if I do hold the idea that I'm in here controlling it? Who cares?
It's so simple that thought can't touch it. How could it? As soon as there's a thought it's not it! Now I see why I've been round and round in circles! I'm not sure the internet has actually helped or not?
You just have to turn away from thought.
In fact why don't 'they' (that famous 'they') ban the word enlightenment?
Are animals enlightened? No, of course not. What a joke? What on earth have I been looking for?
Yet...there remains a persistent 'no this isn't it' nagging voice. Conclusions can give you some relief, but conclusions alone isn't doing it.
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Post by spongey on Feb 14, 2013 2:20:18 GMT -8
Yep nail on head. What I realise is that as seekers we can not but help to tune into ideas of what 'enlightenment' should feel like. You hear terms like 'oneness' and 'all is this' and you think well I don't see it. Then real confusion sets in as you listen to various teachings. For instance for me hearing 'I am that'. I for one have kept thinking, well what is it I'm missing?
On top of that comes desire. It's strong. Desire to improve ones life, when actually there is absolutely nothing to improve.
For me, also I was holding onto the idea that I should be moving around without the idea of a 'controller' as this is a belief I kept hearing I needed to stop believing, and I haven't experienced this (although really I have probably several times a day). But actually, so what if I do hold the idea that I'm in here controlling it? Who cares?
It's so simple that thought can't touch it. How could it? As soon as there's a thought it's not it! Now I see why I've been round and round in circles! I'm not sure the internet has actually helped or not?
You just have to turn away from thought.
In fact why don't 'they' (that famous 'they') ban the word enlightenment?
Are animals enlightened? No, of course not. What a joke? What on earth have I been looking for?
Yet...there remains a persistent 'no this isn't it' nagging voice. Conclusions can give you some relief, but conclusions alone isn't doing it. Talk about piss on my parade!
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Post by Reefs on Feb 14, 2013 3:35:51 GMT -8
Talk about piss on my parade! The nagging voice was part of your parade?
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