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Post by Reefs on Feb 20, 2013 6:45:21 GMT -8
Just want to add that intelectualizing will not get you to where you want to be. You can hear all the great words of teachers and those that know what they are talking about here, just let it sink in, don't try to analyze it. Even trying to understand it can be frustrating. And no one knows that better than me! Have been at this for some years now, and still find myself asking the same questions. I think you mentioned, Spongey, that you hear it but then forget it. I think Enigma told me once that if you forget it, you never KNEW it, hehe. But gradually you have to do it your way. Trying to get answers from others doesn't work. Just communicate, ask away, but don't take it to heart if its not in your heart. Others' words can guide you, but you are alone in what comes to your heart. The way I see it, talks with others can help you getting to the core question(s).
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Post by silence on Feb 20, 2013 12:04:54 GMT -8
Ah, yes that makes sense to me. And that is important to me as I have questioned my motives and thought I needed a profound explanation in order to prove my sincerity (to myself). "Something is not afraid of your pain and is not going away"...I wonder what made you add that? I have not heard that before and I do resonate with that deeply. There's a movement of conditioning that basically amounts to your personality and everything you know and believe. Within that conditioning, by and large the most common approach to ones pain and general unhappiness is to change the focus and find things to be happy about or to not give in to the pain. People will even have breakthroughs and tell you "happiness is a choice!". In the short term and to a degree, this can actually work. In the long term, it does not. It doesn't work because life, what is actually operating everything, not just your heart and various glands you never knew about isn't interested in having any sort of permanent experience. It's totally unconcerned with zeroing in on what happiness is and then making that your default state. You could say life is a movement of fearless curiosity. The deepest darkest sadness or the most horrific terror poses absolutely no threat to life, to what you are. Since nothing was ever outside of the scope of and depth of life, there is nothing to leave behind. The pain can be pushed away and suppressed by thought but you will always gravitate back towards it until there's a willingness to simply let it be however it's going to be. The moment you're willing to totally let it be without any agenda whatsoever, it simply reveals itself to you and then disappears into the abyss.
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Post by silence on Feb 20, 2013 12:19:36 GMT -8
Silence, yes being totally honest I don't want to keep feeling certain feelings and want freedom from certain thoughts. Am pretty certain I've said all this before. However, in all honesty over the last few days (spurred by one of your posts here) I have been able to look at concept after concept and it is making space. It's as though there are two perspectives. The 'spongey one' that is being negative then doing battle with itself not wanting to feel negative, then the 'concept-less one' (I have to actively go there though), that sees the illusion of it. Trust me, it would be impossible for one to look at the identity of 'me' as many times as I have and not see it for what it truly is. So I guess now what's happening is a kind of 'what now?' ...as in 'arn't I meant to feel better?' 'arn't things meant to not bother me?' ... ...these questions give rise to 'well I'm obviously not there then yet?' and round and round I go! Both perspectives are thought created which is why it seems like you have to "actively go there". There's a war going on within you and you're waiting to see who wins. What if you let go of both? Faced the fact that sadness is a part of life. Faced the fact that there is no factory churning out replica buddhas and the destination you're waiting for is a total fabrication of imagination. Faced the fact that this is it. You're like the child strapped to the roller coaster already in motion. You either struggle and cry out for it to be something other than it is or you open your eyes and allow yourself to be surprised.
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Post by silence on Feb 20, 2013 12:22:19 GMT -8
It doesn't reduce anything. On the contrary, it puts an end to a significant amount of struggle that's trying to make the focus into something that it isn't. There's nothing wrong with trying to feel better. It's the catalyst that gets most people interested in looking within. We can never transcend that interest until we're willing to give it full attention without all sorts of strings attached or convince ourselves prematurely of fundamental truths we may have heard or glimpsed. Something is not afraid of your pain and it is not going away. ...equally something is afraid of it and trying to escape, right? Yes, theres a movement of thought that wants to escape. It's tangled itself all up with your primal sense of survival and put you in fight or flight mode.
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Post by spongey on Feb 22, 2013 19:57:54 GMT -8
Silence, yes being totally honest I don't want to keep feeling certain feelings and want freedom from certain thoughts. Am pretty certain I've said all this before. However, in all honesty over the last few days (spurred by one of your posts here) I have been able to look at concept after concept and it is making space. It's as though there are two perspectives. The 'spongey one' that is being negative then doing battle with itself not wanting to feel negative, then the 'concept-less one' (I have to actively go there though), that sees the illusion of it. Trust me, it would be impossible for one to look at the identity of 'me' as many times as I have and not see it for what it truly is. So I guess now what's happening is a kind of 'what now?' ...as in 'arn't I meant to feel better?' 'arn't things meant to not bother me?' ... ...these questions give rise to 'well I'm obviously not there then yet?' and round and round I go! Both perspectives are thought created which is why it seems like you have to "actively go there". There's a war going on within you and you're waiting to see who wins. What if you let go of both? Faced the fact that sadness is a part of life. Faced the fact that there is no factory churning out replica buddhas and the destination you're waiting for is a total fabrication of imagination. Faced the fact that this is it. You're like the child strapped to the roller coaster already in motion. You either struggle and cry out for it to be something other than it is or you open your eyes and allow yourself to be surprised. Ok well at the moment I seem to have no reply. I'm not sure I quite know how to let go but the next time sadness engulfs I will do my best to be with it. I guess I'll report back!
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Post by Reefs on Feb 23, 2013 3:20:26 GMT -8
Ok well at the moment I seem to have no reply. I'm not sure I quite know how to let go but the next time sadness engulfs I will do my best to be with it.
I guess I'll report back! Who will report what? And why?
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Post by spongey on Feb 24, 2013 5:12:50 GMT -8
Ok well at the moment I seem to have no reply. I'm not sure I quite know how to let go but the next time sadness engulfs I will do my best to be with it.
I guess I'll report back! Who will report what? And why? Ha ha ha. Love it. I'll report...me...me me me me me me. And why? Because I feel I owe it to those who have posted here. Particularly Silence, who has been extremely insightful as aways! Because I want to. So that's the realm of mind. Who will report what? Thoughts will report words. Why? Because there is a false feeling of having to. That's still not it though.... What's actually going on here? That's been my main focus the last few days. Am I lying on a bed? Without referring to thought, no. I can't even feel my body let alone the bed. I can not be changing thoughts. I am sensations, I am thoughts, I am all of it...yet nothing. That's it there. That thing that can't be grasped at. I felt it..then I'm back to thoughts. That's ok though. I'm not Nothing, nothing is another label. Even saying that is too much. I'll get there....ha ha ha. It doesn't matter does it? If I get to that imaginary place or not!...ha ha ha.
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Post by Reefs on Feb 24, 2013 6:57:31 GMT -8
It's getting more and more subtle. It's good to see that you don't like your own answers no matter how seemingly accurate and clever they are.
Could you just live in peace without having to have the answers?
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Post by spongey on Feb 24, 2013 9:42:47 GMT -8
It's getting more and more subtle. It's good to see that you don't like your own answers no matter how seemingly accurate and clever they are. Could you just live in peace without having to have the answers? What's the 'it' that's getting subtle? :-) Could I live without needing the answers?...mmmm. Right now, there's a strong urge to keep investigating...I can see how that makes no sense whatsoever.
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2013 10:47:41 GMT -8
It's getting more and more subtle. It's good to see that you don't like your own answers no matter how seemingly accurate and clever they are. Could you just live in peace without having to have the answers? I would say as long as questions remain, the answer would have to be no.
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2013 10:50:51 GMT -8
It's getting more and more subtle. It's good to see that you don't like your own answers no matter how seemingly accurate and clever they are. Could you just live in peace without having to have the answers? What's the 'it' that's getting subtle? :-) Could I live without needing the answers?...mmmm. Right now, there's a strong urge to keep investigating...I can see how that makes no sense whatsoever. It makes perfect sense. The process of dissolving ignorance is not ignorance. To point beyond the seeking is not to imply there's anything wrong with the seeking.
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Post by silence on Feb 24, 2013 13:34:56 GMT -8
Ha ha ha. Love it. I'll report...me...me me me me me me. And why? Because I feel I owe it to those who have posted here. Particularly Silence, who has been extremely insightful as aways! Because I want to. No worries. It's the only type of discussion where one person spontaneously disappearing could be taken as a good sign. Even saying that is too much. Heh, yes. Does it still feel like something needs to be said?
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Post by spongey on Feb 24, 2013 17:00:24 GMT -8
What's the 'it' that's getting subtle? :-) Could I live without needing the answers?...mmmm. Right now, there's a strong urge to keep investigating...I can see how that makes no sense whatsoever. It makes perfect sense. The process of dissolving ignorance is not ignorance. To point beyond the seeking is not to imply there's anything wrong with the seeking. There's certainly nothing wrong with the seeking because seeking, not seeking, being happy, being sad, crazy....whatever. Doesn't matter. But equally, are you telling me you still 'seek?'
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Post by spongey on Feb 24, 2013 17:02:55 GMT -8
Ha ha ha. Love it. I'll report...me...me me me me me me. And why? Because I feel I owe it to those who have posted here. Particularly Silence, who has been extremely insightful as aways! Because I want to. No worries. It's the only type of discussion where one person spontaneously disappearing could be taken as a good sign. Even saying that is too much. Heh, yes. Does it still feel like something needs to be said? Ha ha that's funny :-)
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2013 17:34:59 GMT -8
It makes perfect sense. The process of dissolving ignorance is not ignorance. To point beyond the seeking is not to imply there's anything wrong with the seeking. There's certainly nothing wrong with the seeking because seeking, not seeking, being happy, being sad, crazy....whatever. Doesn't matter. You're saying suffering/not suffering doesn't matter? Didn't really mean to imply that....so much....really.
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