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Post by spongey on Feb 18, 2013 22:29:45 GMT -8
Ok well I wasn't speaking consciously but we don't want to get into a nonsense! The illusion of self just happens at an early age without realising. Then those who are interested seek to see through it. The pointers work or they don't until they do. If you never came across 'non-dual' teachings, how could you ever know you were pretending not to know? Anyhow, not interested in that right now. I think I'm going to go back to basics with all this and stop the intellectualizing. I will keep looking until I 'see'. For some reason, I look and see but obviously don't really. It is simple am sure. I know I'm not a pineapple and I've seen that I'm nothing (I can't be a momentarily thought or a changing body) my mind just keeps jumping in over and over that's all it is. Sounds like an escape plan. When is the prison break expected? Sigh! You're right...god this is laughable! Subtleties of my mind.
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Post by Reefs on Feb 18, 2013 23:02:43 GMT -8
Sounds like an escape plan. When is the prison break expected? Sigh! You're right...god this is laughable! Subtleties of my mind. You will get out on parole! Most of those who are out are on parole.
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lena
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Post by lena on Feb 19, 2013 14:27:30 GMT -8
Hey! I've read through this whole thread, I got a little something from everyone who posted. Absolutley awesome conversation. I have been a little overwhelmed with these boards, don't know where to go, what to do, lol, I don't remember where I left off, and there are soooo many topics.
Just want to add that intelectualizing will not get you to where you want to be. You can hear all the great words of teachers and those that know what they are talking about here, just let it sink in, don't try to analyze it. Even trying to understand it can be frustrating. And no one knows that better than me! Have been at this for some years now, and still find myself asking the same questions. I think you mentioned, Spongey, that you hear it but then forget it. I think Enigma told me once that if you forget it, you never KNEW it, hehe. But gradually you have to do it your way. Trying to get answers from others doesn't work. Just communicate, ask away, but don't take it to heart if its not in your heart. Others' words can guide you, but you are alone in what comes to your heart.
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Post by spongey on Feb 19, 2013 14:34:06 GMT -8
Hey! I've read through this whole thread, I got a little something from everyone who posted. Absolutley awesome conversation. I have been a little overwhelmed with these boards, don't know where to go, what to do, lol, I don't remember where I left off, and there are soooo many topics. Just want to add that intelectualizing will not get you to where you want to be. You can hear all the great words of teachers and those that know what they are talking about here, just let it sink in, don't try to analyze it. Even trying to understand it can be frustrating. And no one knows that better than me! Have been at this for some years now, and still find myself asking the same questions. I think you mentioned, Spongey, that you hear it but then forget it. I think Enigma told me once that if you forget it, you never KNEW it, hehe. But gradually you have to do it your way. Trying to get answers from others doesn't work. Just communicate, ask away, but don't take it to heart if its not in your heart. Others' words can guide you, but you are alone in what comes to your heart. Thanks I realise this. The questions come out but then I'm silent for a while. I know people say let it sink in, but it's either there on the surface to think about or it's forgotten. In other words, if I'm not contemplating the subject it's not on my mind at all, so not sure when the sinking in will happen.
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Post by silence on Feb 19, 2013 15:33:25 GMT -8
You obviously know yourself and are yourself right now. It's not as if you're wondering whether you're a pineapple or a floating cloud of nothingness (I hope ;D). The problem is that knowing and being yourself seems like it isn't good enough. You want to know all about yourself and that's the domain of thought. You want thought to tell you who you are, where you came from and all other qualities that seem to relate to you. Thought IS one of those things you're doing right now and it's just a label maker running amock. If you stop looking for the label maker to tell you what you are with superficial words put together in the correct order or a feeling that seems to say "that's me", the opportunity to know yourself intimately is present. I'm not talking about some mystical tool or supernatural intuition that only really spiritual people have. You don't need any tool to bridge any gap because there isn't one. Just stop pretending! The only difference between you and a zen master is simply that the zen master has the courage to move, be and operate from that 'empty space'. He doesn't need any object to tell him what he is no matter how profound it may seem. No definately don't think I'm a pineapple. The labeling is always there though unless I actively sit with experience. So I can know it right now but it's the day by day thoughts that are negative that get me down. I seem to get quite a few of those 'waves' of depression/despair/sadness, and when I really look it's just a crazy feeling. I wonder if it's because I'm noticing it, that there are so many of these episodes, don't know. There's definately a 'me' disliking it though. I think I have tried to distract myself but now I will sit with it more when it happens. Just be honest with yourself. What is spirituality about for you? Is it about feeling better? If it is, why not just admit it. If you can't come out and admit it, you'll relentlessly keep trying to make seeing clearly into a means to an end of feeling the way you want to feel. And really, it's that deception that hurts worse than anything.
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lena
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Post by lena on Feb 19, 2013 15:35:36 GMT -8
Hey! I've read through this whole thread, I got a little something from everyone who posted. Absolutley awesome conversation. I have been a little overwhelmed with these boards, don't know where to go, what to do, lol, I don't remember where I left off, and there are soooo many topics. Just want to add that intelectualizing will not get you to where you want to be. You can hear all the great words of teachers and those that know what they are talking about here, just let it sink in, don't try to analyze it. Even trying to understand it can be frustrating. And no one knows that better than me! Have been at this for some years now, and still find myself asking the same questions. I think you mentioned, Spongey, that you hear it but then forget it. I think Enigma told me once that if you forget it, you never KNEW it, hehe. But gradually you have to do it your way. Trying to get answers from others doesn't work. Just communicate, ask away, but don't take it to heart if its not in your heart. Others' words can guide you, but you are alone in what comes to your heart. Thanks I realise this. The questions come out but then I'm silent for a while. I know people say let it sink in, but it's either there on the surface to think about or it's forgotten. In other words, if I'm not contemplating the subject it's not on my mind at all, so not sure when the sinking in will happen. I understand. I probably should have not used 'sink in', but when you hear the same thing over and over it eventually starts to make sense and then you realize it to be true. Not because someone told you its true, you see that for yourself. Believe me, I have resisted more often than I have accepted. Just listen, over and over, ask questions over and over, never be afraid to be brave enough to ask anything. Along the lines of what was discussed here about context, I had no idea what was going on with that. Everything sounded like a contradiction until I began to understand a little of what spiritual context was all about. Talk about baby steps! Anyway, just be gracious for the people that you find who can even talk about this stuff, and there are some pretty impressive people here from what I am reading. I have always felt sooooo very grateful to have found those that I can ask these dumb moronic questions to, and they never tire of 'the talk'. I am grateful for that.
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Post by silence on Feb 19, 2013 15:40:27 GMT -8
Ok well I wasn't speaking consciously but we don't want to get into a nonsense! The illusion of self just happens at an early age without realising. Then those who are interested seek to see through it. The pointers work or they don't until they do. If you never came across 'non-dual' teachings, how could you ever know you were pretending not to know? Anyhow, not interested in that right now. I think I'm going to go back to basics with all this and stop the intellectualizing. I will keep looking until I 'see'. For some reason, I look and see but obviously don't really. It is simple am sure. I know I'm not a pineapple and I've seen that I'm nothing (I can't be a momentarily thought or a changing body) my mind just keeps jumping in over and over that's all it is. Sounds like an escape plan. When is the prison break expected? Yea, it's like thought starts hitting the panic button searching all over for a seam in reality. Like life is a tent it can unzip and step out of. Simultaneously though, it can't understand why it can't see what everyone says is obvious. It's really no different than if you were exploring a cave and then became extremely clostraphobic. There's a good chance almost everything right in front of your face would become obscured and overshadowed by the need to escape dominating your experience. Surely anything of a subtle nature would be next to impossible to notice.
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lena
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Post by lena on Feb 19, 2013 16:24:10 GMT -8
No definately don't think I'm a pineapple. The labeling is always there though unless I actively sit with experience. So I can know it right now but it's the day by day thoughts that are negative that get me down. I seem to get quite a few of those 'waves' of depression/despair/sadness, and when I really look it's just a crazy feeling. I wonder if it's because I'm noticing it, that there are so many of these episodes, don't know. There's definately a 'me' disliking it though. I think I have tried to distract myself but now I will sit with it more when it happens. Just be honest with yourself. What is spirituality about for you? Is it about feeling better? If it is, why not just admit it. If you can't come out and admit it, you'll relentlessly keep trying to make seeing clearly into a means to an end of feeling the way you want to feel. And really, it's that deception that hurts worse than anything. Wow, that is a great question. Okay, so if you admit it, then what? Say it is about feeling better, does that reduce the sincerity of the seeker?
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Post by silence on Feb 19, 2013 17:43:53 GMT -8
Just be honest with yourself. What is spirituality about for you? Is it about feeling better? If it is, why not just admit it. If you can't come out and admit it, you'll relentlessly keep trying to make seeing clearly into a means to an end of feeling the way you want to feel. And really, it's that deception that hurts worse than anything. Wow, that is a great question. Okay, so if you admit it, then what? Say it is about feeling better, does that reduce the sincerity of the seeker? It doesn't reduce anything. On the contrary, it puts an end to a significant amount of struggle that's trying to make the focus into something that it isn't. There's nothing wrong with trying to feel better. It's the catalyst that gets most people interested in looking within. We can never transcend that interest until we're willing to give it full attention without all sorts of strings attached or convince ourselves prematurely of fundamental truths we may have heard or glimpsed. Something is not afraid of your pain and it is not going away.
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lena
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Post by lena on Feb 19, 2013 19:00:50 GMT -8
Wow, that is a great question. Okay, so if you admit it, then what? Say it is about feeling better, does that reduce the sincerity of the seeker? It doesn't reduce anything. On the contrary, it puts an end to a significant amount of struggle that's trying to make the focus into something that it isn't. There's nothing wrong with trying to feel better. It's the catalyst that gets most people interested in looking within. We can never transcend that interest until we're willing to give it full attention without all sorts of strings attached or convince ourselves prematurely of fundamental truths we may have heard or glimpsed. Something is not afraid of your pain and it is not going away. Ah, yes that makes sense to me. And that is important to me as I have questioned my motives and thought I needed a profound explanation in order to prove my sincerity (to myself). "Something is not afraid of your pain and is not going away"...I wonder what made you add that? I have not heard that before and I do resonate with that deeply.
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Post by spongey on Feb 19, 2013 21:02:49 GMT -8
No definately don't think I'm a pineapple. The labeling is always there though unless I actively sit with experience. So I can know it right now but it's the day by day thoughts that are negative that get me down. I seem to get quite a few of those 'waves' of depression/despair/sadness, and when I really look it's just a crazy feeling. I wonder if it's because I'm noticing it, that there are so many of these episodes, don't know. There's definately a 'me' disliking it though. I think I have tried to distract myself but now I will sit with it more when it happens. Just be honest with yourself. What is spirituality about for you? Is it about feeling better? If it is, why not just admit it. If you can't come out and admit it, you'll relentlessly keep trying to make seeing clearly into a means to an end of feeling the way you want to feel. And really, it's that deception that hurts worse than anything. I'll just quote here as it's easiest. Firstly Lena I am truly grateful for the guys on here and have told them as much before so hopefully they do know that. They continually stick with my absurdness. If I show frustration it is with the situation only. Thank you for what you wrote too. Everyone seems to have gone through similar so I guess this is part of my path- dunno! Silence, yes being totally honest I don't want to keep feeling certain feelings and want freedom from certain thoughts. Am pretty certain I've said all this before. However, in all honesty over the last few days (spurred by one of your posts here) I have been able to look at concept after concept and it is making space. It's as though there are two perspectives. The 'spongey one' that is being negative then doing battle with itself not wanting to feel negative, then the 'concept-less one' (I have to actively go there though), that sees the illusion of it. Trust me, it would be impossible for one to look at the identity of 'me' as many times as I have and not see it for what it truly is. So I guess now what's happening is a kind of 'what now?' ...as in 'arn't I meant to feel better?' 'arn't things meant to not bother me?' ... ...these questions give rise to 'well I'm obviously not there then yet?' and round and round I go!
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Post by enigma on Feb 19, 2013 22:20:09 GMT -8
Don't assume that what is obvious must be consciously acknowledged. I often point out misperceptions and projections that folks are doing all the time. It's common to read a sentence and substitute a preferred meaning other than the obvious. It's common to pretend that something is not happening in ourselves, and then proceed to talk about it happening in others. These substitutions and projections are done purposely. How could we be in denial about what we're doing unless we first know what we are doing? How can we project onto others until we first know that what we're projecting is already in us? This is pretending not to know, isn't it? We do the same thing when it comes to failing to recognize the truth. We just pretend not to know. It's a matter of ceasing to pretend. Ok well I wasn't speaking consciously but we don't want to get into a nonsense! The illusion of self just happens at an early age without realising. Then those who are interested seek to see through it. The pointers work or they don't until they do. If you never came across 'non-dual' teachings, how could you ever know you were pretending not to know? I've never heard that taught. As for the unconscious, it's a label we give to stuff we pretend to not know. My suggestion would be to stay with this for a bit anyway. There may good reason for you to not be interested.
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Post by spongey on Feb 19, 2013 22:37:53 GMT -8
Ok well I wasn't speaking consciously but we don't want to get into a nonsense! The illusion of self just happens at an early age without realising. Then those who are interested seek to see through it. The pointers work or they don't until they do. If you never came across 'non-dual' teachings, how could you ever know you were pretending not to know? I've never heard that taught. I'm unique! [/quote] As for the unconscious, it's a label we give to stuff we pretend to not know. My suggestion would be to stay with this for a bit anyway. There may good reason for you to not be interested. [/quote] Ok!
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Post by spongey on Feb 19, 2013 22:40:06 GMT -8
Wow, that is a great question. Okay, so if you admit it, then what? Say it is about feeling better, does that reduce the sincerity of the seeker? It doesn't reduce anything. On the contrary, it puts an end to a significant amount of struggle that's trying to make the focus into something that it isn't. There's nothing wrong with trying to feel better. It's the catalyst that gets most people interested in looking within. We can never transcend that interest until we're willing to give it full attention without all sorts of strings attached or convince ourselves prematurely of fundamental truths we may have heard or glimpsed. Something is not afraid of your pain and it is not going away. ...equally something is afraid of it and trying to escape, right?
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Post by enigma on Feb 19, 2013 23:34:23 GMT -8
Just be honest with yourself. What is spirituality about for you? Is it about feeling better? If it is, why not just admit it. If you can't come out and admit it, you'll relentlessly keep trying to make seeing clearly into a means to an end of feeling the way you want to feel. And really, it's that deception that hurts worse than anything. I'll just quote here as it's easiest. Firstly Lena I am truly grateful for the guys on here and have told them as much before so hopefully they do know that. They continually stick with my absurdness. If I show frustration it is with the situation only. Thank you for what you wrote too. Everyone seems to have gone through similar so I guess this is part of my path- dunno! Silence, yes being totally honest I don't want to keep feeling certain feelings and want freedom from certain thoughts. Am pretty certain I've said all this before. However, in all honesty over the last few days (spurred by one of your posts here) I have been able to look at concept after concept and it is making space. It's as though there are two perspectives. The 'spongey one' that is being negative then doing battle with itself not wanting to feel negative, then the 'concept-less one' (I have to actively go there though), that sees the illusion of it. Trust me, it would be impossible for one to look at the identity of 'me' as many times as I have and not see it for what it truly is. So I guess now what's happening is a kind of 'what now?' ...as in 'arn't I meant to feel better?' 'arn't things meant to not bother me?' ... ...these questions give rise to 'well I'm obviously not there then yet?' and round and round I go! Maybe instead of checking to see if you feel better, you could look into why you feel bad in the first place such that you need to feel better. Maybe the problem is only in needing to feel better and the end of that need is really what you're looking for. If you look into that, I don't mean all the things that aren't going right, I really mean is this stuff really happening to someone, or is it just happening and you're just watching it happen? Silence said "Something is not afraid of your pain and it is not going away." Do you really need to be afraid of what you're watching happen, and if you are, does it have to be a problem? You watch horror movies and get scared but it's not really a problem, right?
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