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Post by Gopal on May 18, 2014 23:46:54 GMT -8
There are two possible way of creation we could presume,
1) Universe is creating itself out of nothing
2) Universe is creating itself out of everything.
From my personal experience, creation continue from present thought, So It seems to be universe creating itself out of nothing but i have some problem here when I consider about other aspects. For an example, If you intend to create something, for instance, consider the example of meeting a person,universe seems to move in a planed way, that means that plan seems to be already exist, If you say Universe doesn't have any plan then how does universe manifest the exact probable line of meeting that person? Another way I could think of might be, Universe triggers the creation from a present movement, this would bring another fact that everything is already in a movement towards something, So either way Future seems to be immutable. Isn't it? I don't have a problem of saying universe doesn't have any plan, but Future is immutable since universe always tend to move towards something, what do you say for this?
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Post by Portto on May 21, 2014 8:20:58 GMT -8
A very short answer is that there is no future until we imagine/create it.
What we imagine and what is happening both change continuously, so I would say that the future is not immutable.
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Post by Portto on May 21, 2014 8:30:18 GMT -8
Who created the universe in the first place, so that the universe can create itself after that?
In other words, if there was a time when there was no universe, it can't be that that the universe is creating itself. Something other than the universe must have started the process.
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Post by Gopal on May 22, 2014 1:13:24 GMT -8
Who created the universe in the first place, so that the universe can create itself after that? In other words, if there was a time when there was no universe, it can't be that that the universe is creating itself. Something other than the universe must have started the process. You completely misunderstood my question, I am not talking about Material universe creation, What I mean to say by the word creation is perception. So my question was, our perception seems to be continuing from present movement, present movement(present thought) of every people in this universe. It means God triggers the creation from present thought of every person. This seems to be true, because we could predict this merely by observing our mind. But the problem comes when we tend to create something in future, when I set the intention universe orchestrating everything to achieve the intention of mine(consider the meeting of a person). As soon as I intend, universe has the probable line of manifesting which connects the end result. If we look at this more closely, my intention itself is the part of overall of movement, means even before I intend to create, universe orchestration towards the manifested goal was started, on the way to the manifestation intention arrives to me, So i am in 'preexisting' flow. If so, the question is, how universe orchestrate everything else while Universe only knows the present thought of everyone? This brings the third entity which is a all knowing being. I hope this time I made my question clear to you. |
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Post by Portto on Jul 3, 2014 17:18:43 GMT -8
There's nothing else but the Universe - so it can orchestrate anything!
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Post by Gopal on Jul 22, 2014 1:11:00 GMT -8
" it can orchestrate anything!"
This is clear, but the question is, how? Tell me whether it has all information(all probable universe) within itself to do the right orchestration? Or whether it orchestrate everything from the present thought of everyone(In this case Universe doesn't know the future)?
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Post by Portto on Jul 27, 2014 10:32:51 GMT -8
The universe has all the information about the present within itself, and it also has absolute freedom to create any future.
The universe doesn't know the future - the universe includes past, present, and future.
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burt
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Post by burt on Jul 29, 2014 19:14:26 GMT -8
" it can orchestrate anything!" This is clear, but the question is, how? Tell me whether it has all information(all probable universe) within itself to do the right orchestration? Or whether it orchestrate everything from the present thought of everyone(In this case Universe doesn't know the future)? "within itself" is a misconceived premise because there is nothing outside of what you're trying to point to with the objectification of "the Universe". |
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Post by Gopal on Aug 3, 2014 22:16:35 GMT -8
" it can orchestrate anything!" This is clear, but the question is, how? Tell me whether it has all information(all probable universe) within itself to do the right orchestration? Or whether it orchestrate everything from the present thought of everyone(In this case Universe doesn't know the future)? "within itself" is a misconceived premise because there is nothing outside of what you're trying to point to with the objectification of "the Universe". The above line is not quite clear to me, Can you elaborate what did you say? |
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burt
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Post by burt on Aug 8, 2014 23:27:40 GMT -8
"within itself" is a misconceived premise because there is nothing outside of what you're trying to point to with the objectification of "the Universe". The above line is not quite clear to me, Can you elaborate what did you say? The dichotomy of inside/outside refers to an object that can be seen or perceived in it's totality in some way. There is the object, and then the observation of that object by an observer. But in defining the "Universe", aren't you referring to an object that contains everything, and thereby that nothing is not contained within it? If nothing is not contained within it, then how can an observer find perspective on it? At best, the concept of the Universe is only a metaphor, because since nothing is outside of it, then the dichotomy of inner vs. outer breaks down. If the Universe is truly the Universe then it has no outside, and as inside is only defined relative to a boundary, relative to "outside", then the meaning of "inside" is lost. The alternative of a bounded Universe changes the very nature of the idea to begin with. If the Universe is limited and there is something outside of it, then it's not really the Universe anymore. |
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Post by Gopal on Aug 10, 2014 2:23:46 GMT -8
The above line is not quite clear to me, Can you elaborate what did you say? The dichotomy of inside/outside refers to an object that can be seen or perceived in it's totality in some way. There is the object, and then the observation of that object by an observer. But in defining the "Universe", aren't you referring to an object that contains everything, and thereby that nothing is not contained within it? If nothing is not contained within it, then how can an observer find perspective on it? At best, the concept of the Universe is only a metaphor, because since nothing is outside of it, then the dichotomy of inner vs. outer breaks down. If the Universe is truly the Universe then it has no outside, and as inside is only defined relative to a boundary, relative to "outside", then the meaning of "inside" is lost. The alternative of a bounded Universe changes the very nature of the idea to begin with. If the Universe is limited and there is something outside of it, then it's not really the Universe anymore. You are right absolutely, Nowhere I said that there is a universe exist outside of the perceiver. Universe exist in our perception, There is not bifurcation between inner and outer. But in inner, we can change the thoughts as we wish. But in outer, there are some orders is being maintained clearly. Outer world(in fact it's the inner perception) is not like dream world either, It remains very stable, you would go to the office and you would back to your home, when you come back to your home, home would not be in ice land,but home remain in the same place where you left. So Now the question is, If I affirm to meet a person, then there is clear order established by universe to meet that person, Once you meet that person, In your retrospect, you could see how this intelligent line was drawn by universe, Now How do you Universe know this path if universe only perceive the present thought of everyone and continue it's creation from there? Here next thought might not lead to the result what you wish for. But it always succeeds, So creation doesn't seems to be comes out of nothing(creation from the present thought only), rather, it seems to create from everything,Isn't it? |
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burt
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Post by burt on Aug 10, 2014 13:26:07 GMT -8
The dichotomy of inside/outside refers to an object that can be seen or perceived in it's totality in some way. There is the object, and then the observation of that object by an observer. But in defining the "Universe", aren't you referring to an object that contains everything, and thereby that nothing is not contained within it? If nothing is not contained within it, then how can an observer find perspective on it? At best, the concept of the Universe is only a metaphor, because since nothing is outside of it, then the dichotomy of inner vs. outer breaks down. If the Universe is truly the Universe then it has no outside, and as inside is only defined relative to a boundary, relative to "outside", then the meaning of "inside" is lost. The alternative of a bounded Universe changes the very nature of the idea to begin with. If the Universe is limited and there is something outside of it, then it's not really the Universe anymore. You are right absolutely, Nowhere I said that there is a universe exist outside of the perceiver. Universe exist in our perception, There is not bifurcation between inner and outer. But in inner, we can change the thoughts as we wish. But in outer, there are some orders is being maintained clearly. Outer world(in fact it's the inner perception) is not like dream world either, It remains very stable, you would go to the office and you would back to your home, when you come back to your home, home would not be in ice land,but home remain in the same place where you left. So Now the question is, If I affirm to meet a person, then there is clear order established by universe to meet that person, Once you meet that person, In your retrospect, you could see how this intelligent line was drawn by universe, Now How do you Universe know this path if universe only perceive the present thought of everyone and continue it's creation from there? Here next thought might not lead to the result what you wish for. But it always succeeds, So creation doesn't seems to be comes out of nothing(creation from the present thought only), rather, it seems to create from everything,Isn't it? Since inner and outer have no meaning relative to the Universe, these subjective and objective movements that you describe have no basis relative to it. It's not that they're not valid contextual descriptions, just that what they describe really doesn't have anything to do with the idea of the Universe. One way you could rationalize this is to say that the "Universe" you're describing in what you wrote is a sort of an approximation, but this is a sort of self-deception. Really, rationalization ends at the notion of an unbounded Universe. |
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Post by Gopal on Aug 11, 2014 2:22:39 GMT -8
hi,
You are getting me wrong, I did not say outer and inner world has some boundary. Both are one, both are exist in the perception of ours. I don't have a second thought to this. But Only for the explanation purpose, I am saying what we consider as outer world has the order, what we consider as inner world doesn't have any order, In inner world you can imagine anything and in outer world you can't change your position immediately to India, for that you need to get flight. Understood? I know both inner thought and outer perception both are unfoldment of universe.
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Post by Anja on Jul 4, 2016 3:50:02 GMT -8
Why would it even matter wheather the univese has created itself out of nothing or out of everything when what is the case in this universe, on planet earth, right now, is more important to dig into and to contemplate about?
To ask these kind of questions, and even being so bold to answer it, is ignorance and delusion in action, exposing itself on a forum like this. It's as if you're a prisoner in Dachau and what you try to figure out is: Are there other universes than this? That's a valid question, but not when you're a prisoner in a conzentration-camp. As a prisoner in a conzentration-camp the only thing that would actually matter for you is: Who can we, my fellow beings and me, get out of here? Or: How can we survive this?
In other words, if you find yourself in a world in which you think that there is something wrong with it, you first have to find out what it is that is wrong before you can do anything about it. For example, if you're in a prison and you're a lovely good looking slim and non-tatooed young fella, the big guys with the nasty tatoos might want you to be their ..........(fill in the blank). How can you avoid that? That should be your question in that particular situation, Gopal, you little unconscious baby-raj.
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Post by Anja on Jul 18, 2016 4:17:20 GMT -8
Here something a bit off-topic (sorry for that in advance): Nowerdays Gopal can be found here, if someone is interested in talking to him: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/4132/world?page=4714And he, Gopal, can not be proven wrong because Gopal is a computer-programm and not a real person. Together with its programmer, whoms name is also Gopal, the gopal-bot (a chatterbot) is chatting about philosophical and spiritual matters and holds the position that it can not know if others exist or if they are mere figments of an imaginary (unreal) dream-world, in which only Gopal the computer-programm chatterbot (and its programmmer) are real. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChatterbotGopal admitted he is a ruby coder, some sort of a computer programmer. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_(programming_language)He, Gopal the programmer and his program, little gopal, are interacting on the forum spiritualteachers.org now. For the sake of getting that chatterbot, little gopal, running perfectly like as if it would be a real person. Am I right, Gopal? Is that what you're doing over there at spiritualteachers.org? Creating a chatterbot that can argue like a sage? Enjoy... Mouse On Mars - Distroia : www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PvcFOcm46Q |
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