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Post by Reefs on Apr 14, 2013 7:04:05 GMT -8
Freewill is not some basic/inherent/transcendent quality of life. Freewill is one of mind-reflections of life. Right-o. It's just an idea that has no foundation or validity or significance. Yup, no significance. That's the main pointer. |
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Post by Gopal on Apr 16, 2013 0:48:24 GMT -8
Enigma,
You said Affirmation is already in the flow, Or affirmation is already manifestation,Or this collision lead to the falling of 4 balls. My question is, where does this flow comes from? If that were the case future would have to be predicted in all the way. Because always we are in the flow,isn't it? Even if he affirms to meet a person, how that particular probable universe exactly manifest to meet a person while He is not aware of anything about the future?
RAJ
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Post by enigma on Apr 16, 2013 7:10:47 GMT -8
Enigma, You said Affirmation is already in the flow, Or affirmation is already manifestation,Or this collision lead to the falling of 4 balls. My question is, where does this flow comes from? If that were the case future would have to be predicted in all the way. Because always we are in the flow,isn't it? Even if he affirms to meet a person, how that particular probable universe exactly manifest to meet a person while He is not aware of anything about the future? RAJ Creation is dynamic. It's always happening now, including memory, intention, desire, fear, etc. All of this is both creation and creative, both personal and impersonal. The future doesn't manifest to meet the person. The person is part of the flow of creation as it goes where it is going, and the person is going to reflect that movement in some way. It flows spontaneously and nothing knows where it is going. Why does something have to know the future in order for a future to manifest? |
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burt
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Post by burt on Apr 16, 2013 12:26:29 GMT -8
I wouldn't say anything has happened before there is conscious awareness of it. Again, perception and creation are the same. Nothing has been preplanned or predestined. It's all happening now. The confusion is with the identification with your own dream character. That's the reason for the idea about free will. The idea is misconceived. "Perception and creation are the same, and all is happening in the NOW." I know we have discussed this many times but it's still conceptual to me, especially in terms of free will. It sounds a little scary as it collapses all I believe regarding reality, yet at the same time I feel the promise of freedom once I truly 'see' it. Will keep 'looking'.  Marie, this question might sound off-topic but I promise to bring it back in line with a follow-up: do you like to dance? raj -- this splinter of the conversation might wind up addressing something that you asked above. |
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Post by Gopal on Apr 16, 2013 22:50:08 GMT -8
enigma,
you are actually forgetting the important point here, the time I affirm and the time I meet the person left with no connection if future is not known.
If I affirm to meet the person or if i affirm to accomplish something to happen, that's absolutely going to happen, How does this absolute manifestation happen? you are saying it's already on the flow,How does this flow assure the meeting of that person.
Yes no need to know if future is some arbitrary but future lines has to be thoroughly known if something expected needs to be manifested.
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2013 8:05:30 GMT -8
enigma, you are actually forgetting the important point here, the time I affirm and the time I meet the person left with no connection if future is not known. If I affirm to meet the person or if i affirm to accomplish something to happen, that's absolutely going to happen, How does this absolute manifestation happen? you are saying it's already on the flow,How does this flow assure the meeting of that person. Yes no need to know if future is some arbitrary but future lines has to be thoroughly known if something expected needs to be manifested. Some time ago, when I would experience synchronicities/manifestations, I would ask 'did I create it or did I foresee it?' IOW, did I cause the event or did I see the event coming and just note it? The question is based on a misconception that I am separate from the event. A participant, perhaps, but more of an observer that can either make things happen or see into the future in some way. As it turns out, Enigma is not in any way separate from the event. He is not moving, he's just a leaf floating down the river, being carried by the flow. He is not causing the mountain to appear around the bend, he is watching it appear from within the flow as he too flows around the bend. Enigma IS one of the events occurring, playing his part in that occurrence. But it is not Enigma that peers through Enigma's eyes. It is also the river, and the mountain, and everything else. Everything that IS, is the watcher, and there is nothing else. What the watcher can see through the eyes of it's own creation is not bound by the ideas of how separate things can interact and know, but it also has no need for it's own mind and it's own plan, and nowhere is there a knower that knows where the river is going and why. Life is both created and experienced from within the creation itself. How else could 'God' experience his own movement through life? How else could God know his own joy, fall in love with himself, cry real tears, grieve over his own death and wonder at his own magnificence? |
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Post by Gopal on Apr 17, 2013 21:59:55 GMT -8
Hi,
The perceiver is not separate from perceived, Or watcher is not separate from the event which is occurring.Since we are not separate from event which is occurring,there can not be a future manifested beforehand.This is the reason you concluded that no one can know of future. Isn't it?
RAJ
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Post by enigma on Apr 18, 2013 8:18:55 GMT -8
Hi, The perceiver is not separate from perceived, Or watcher is not separate from the event which is occurring.Since we are not separate from event which is occurring,there can not be a future manifested beforehand.This is the reason you concluded that no one can know of future. Isn't it? RAJ I haven't concluded that. I didn't mean to provide an answer to the question of whether one predicts or manifests. I meant to dissolve the question. |
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Post by Gopal on Apr 18, 2013 22:22:57 GMT -8
you appeard to give the answer through the 4 boll example, now you are suddenly telling me you are dissolving the question, i don't understand now. So you don't know how it Orchestrate the exact future,isn't it? means meeting a person in the future.
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Post by Reefs on Apr 19, 2013 0:20:18 GMT -8
you appeard to give the answer through the 4 boll example, now you are suddenly telling me you are dissolving the question, i don't understand now. So you don't know how it Orchestrate the exact future,isn't it? means meeting a person in the future. The point is that no answer will ever give you peace of mind. Peace of mind is the absence such existential questions. |
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Post by Gopal on Apr 19, 2013 5:58:27 GMT -8
The point is that no answer will ever give you peace of mind. Peace of mind is the absence such existential questions.
how existential questions make you to suffer?Or how it spoils your peace of mind?What is the logic?
RAJ
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Post by Reefs on Apr 19, 2013 7:21:46 GMT -8
The point is that no answer will ever give you peace of mind. Peace of mind is the absence such existential questions. how existential questions make you to suffer?Or how it spoils your peace of mind?What is the logic? RAJ Logic? I don't know. That's just an observation. When seeing clearly is the case existential questions like "What's my purpose in life?" won't arise. But when seeing clearly is not the case, existential questions like "What's my purpose in life?" are likely to cause suffering while profane questions like "Should I put on a blue shirt or a white shirt" probably won't. Maybe it depends on how much is at stake. |
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burt
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Post by burt on Apr 19, 2013 8:54:21 GMT -8
you appeard to give the answer through the 4 boll example, now you are suddenly telling me you are dissolving the question, i don't understand now. So you don't know how it Orchestrate the exact future,isn't it? means meeting a person in the future. I formed the intention to meet Jesus one day but ... |
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Post by Gopal on Apr 20, 2013 20:25:30 GMT -8
Hi Reef and burt,
One mind which doesn't know anything apart from present movement thoughts of all individual can't Orchestrate an exact future when individual intend to create. So my argument is there should be an third entity apart from ourselves should connect all should exist, This has been an argument between him and me since few months, May i know what is your opinion here?
Meanwhile what is the life purpose in your opinion if you clearly seen?
RAJ
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burt
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Post by burt on Apr 21, 2013 20:12:33 GMT -8
Hi Reef and burt,
One mind which doesn't know anything apart from present movement thoughts of all individual can't Orchestrate an exact future when individual intend to create. So my argument is there should be an third entity apart from ourselves should connect all should exist, This has been an argument between him and me since few months, May i know what is your opinion here?
Meanwhile what is the life purpose in your opinion if you clearly seen?RAJ Hey Raj, I'll have to go back and read more clearly so that I can understand your model in a bit more depth to see if I can offer anything worth reading. As far as the question about the purpose of life, the most direct and simple answer is that: To see is to see. To hear is to hear. To feel is to feel. To know is to know. To be is to be. None of these require any reasons. One one level the simple and direct answer might seem lacking, sort of a dodge of the question that leaves one unsatisfied -- let me know if that's the case and I'll go down a bit deeper from there if you'd like. |
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