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Post by enigma on Feb 3, 2013 19:02:17 GMT -8
Is there a short version, Roberto? Lets kill two birdies with one stone: The intensity of the desire is proportional to the anticipated reward. IOW, reward drives desire. Yes, we can view enjoyment as a movement only. When the movement ends, it ends the enjoyment too, so another movement has to be started. Yes, though there are lifestyles that are not so....um.....overindulgent. There's something to said for slowing down the pace, which I've called duality clipping; getting rid of the highest highs, and therefore the lowest lows. However, that's more readily done simply by recognizing the dualistic nature of pleasure/pain. Or more simply, what goes up must come down. Yes, suffering always passes because it is a movement on the dualistic roller coaster just like enjoyment. One can't stay at the suffering end any more than he can stay at the joyful end. The resistance IS the suffering. Yes, this is what is really being sought, and it's very important to notice this is not even on the pleasure/pain roller coaster. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 3, 2013 19:07:34 GMT -8
Why can we not be present in the moment? Because we think we are not already present in the moment. Presence is effortless....and inevitable! To not be present means to be in the thoughts, which naturally refer to past and future. Indeed most are NOT present for long. Yes, it is effortless but not inevitable. Seems to me that to desire is to desire satisfaction. I don't see a demand separate from the desire. One does not desire without also desiring satisfaction. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 3, 2013 19:14:54 GMT -8
If you're demanding satisfaction at some other time you likely aren't going to feel very satisfied right now, which one may or may not equate with suffering. You can notice the demand, but are you conscious of what's driving it? No, demanding satisfaction right now on the spot! The expectation ( to be satisfied in the coming futur) is just an impossible way to deal with concrete reality. Seems to me anticipating future satisfaction is the way most folks operate most of the time. Working to make money, planing future events, getting a degree or learning a trade, etc. The movement toward satisfaction is all there is to the satisfaction. |
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Post by roberto on Feb 3, 2013 20:05:31 GMT -8
There's something to said for slowing down the pace, which I've called duality clipping; getting rid of the highest highs, and therefore the lowest lows. Which ones do you recommend clipping just out of curiosity? |
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Post by theo on Feb 3, 2013 21:31:51 GMT -8
No,desire and attachment are not the same. Attachment has to do with the demand of absolute-right-on-the-spot-and-all-fullfilling-everlasting-satisfaction of the limited-desire. Desire and attachment are not the same thing. But boundaries do get a little fuzzy due to conceptual and linguistic limitations. I considered what you said, but I couldn't think of anything in my experience that resonates with whatever you're trying to say. You'll have to give me an example. If i desire a meal, i want satisfaction of having it. But there is no demand in the desire nor in the in the wanting. Just relative desire and relative wanting. (Absolute) demand is on top of it. ... I get the part about everlasting satisfaction because satisfaction is impermanent. But I wouldn't say that suffering is the result of on-the-spot demand. Most peeps are looking for permanent satisfaction in the future. In the present, we are expecting (in the futur) for an eternal (instant-everlasting) absolute satisfaction through the limited satisfaction of a limited desire. which is, of course, impossible. This impossibility is what deny our demand and therefore the cause of our suffering. |
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Post by theo on Feb 3, 2013 21:40:13 GMT -8
Why can we not be present in the moment? Because we think we are not already present in the moment. Presence is effortless....and inevitable! To not be present means to be in the thoughts, which naturally refer to past and future. Refering to past and futur is a present process. ... Yes, it is effortless but not inevitable. Thinking you are not in the present don't make it true. Seems to me that to desire is to desire satisfaction. I don't see a demand separate from the desire. One does not desire without also desiring satisfaction. desiring satisfaction is not demanding the satisfaction of the desire. |
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Post by theo on Feb 3, 2013 21:54:02 GMT -8
No, demanding satisfaction right now on the spot! The expectation ( to be satisfied in the coming futur) is just an impossible way to deal with concrete reality. Seems to me anticipating future satisfaction is the way most folks operate most of the time. Working to make money, planing future events, getting a degree or learning a trade, etc. The movement toward satisfaction is all there is to the satisfaction. If the movement toward satisfaction were all there is, when not getting satisfaction, we would not suffer of not getting it. We would only be unhappy for a sec. (no big deal!), and then we would move along with the folowing desire. But we are not only unhappy of not getting satisfaction, we suffer from failing to get satisfied. Something more(than a relative satisfaction of a relative desire) is at stakes : our claim to be all-mighty as a limited person. Our claim to succeed "absolutly", our claim to be "god as a human" as a way to be sure we "are" when everything in our limited life proves us that "as a limited person" we "are" not we only "exist". |
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Post by enigma on Feb 3, 2013 22:37:36 GMT -8
There's something to said for slowing down the pace, which I've called duality clipping; getting rid of the highest highs, and therefore the lowest lows. Which ones do you recommend clipping just out of curiosity? All of them. Just dial it way back and see if you can catch the scent of Peace. Something solid that's always with you. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 3, 2013 22:44:09 GMT -8
Refering to past and futur is a present process. Doesn't matter. Being present means not being in the thoughts. That's what it means. You're always in the present. The question is, are you in your mind? Seems to me that to desire is to desire satisfaction. I don't see a demand separate from the desire. One does not desire without also desiring satisfaction. Desiring.....demanding....just seems like a matter of degree to me, like preference, desire, want, need, craving.....demanding. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 3, 2013 22:50:42 GMT -8
Seems to me anticipating future satisfaction is the way most folks operate most of the time. Working to make money, planing future events, getting a degree or learning a trade, etc. The movement toward satisfaction is all there is to the satisfaction. If the movement toward satisfaction were all there is, when not getting satisfaction, we would not suffer of not getting it. We would only be unhappy for a sec. (no big deal!), and then we would move along with the folowing desire. But we are not only unhappy of not getting satisfaction, we suffer from failing to get satisfied. Something more(than a relative satisfaction of a relative desire) is at stakes : our claim to be all-mighty as a limited person. Our claim to succeed "absolutly", our claim to be "god as a human" as a way to be sure we "are" when everything in our limited life proves us that "as a limited person" we "are" not we only "exist". If you don't have satisfaction, you're still trying to move toward satisfaction. Maybe you enjoy it, maybe not. The joy you get from getting what you want is the result of no longer seeking something. It doesn't last long. |
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Post by theo on Feb 4, 2013 0:19:45 GMT -8
Doesn't matter. Being present means not being in the thoughts. That's what it means. ...You're always in the present. The question is, are you in your mind? You are present while "being in your thoughts",while "being in your mind". Our way of talking are just way of thinking. They don't forbid nor spoil anything. Desiring.....demanding....just seems like a matter of degree to me, like preference, desire, want, need, craving.....demanding. no, no! not a matter of degree. would you say "inner peace" and "happyness" are a matter of degree ? |
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Post by theo on Feb 4, 2013 0:27:03 GMT -8
If the movement toward satisfaction were all there is, when not getting satisfaction, we would not suffer of not getting it. We would only be unhappy for a sec. (no big deal!), and then we would move along with the folowing desire. But we are not only unhappy of not getting satisfaction, we suffer from failing to get satisfied. Something more(than a relative satisfaction of a relative desire) is at stakes : our claim to be all-mighty as a limited person. Our claim to succeed "absolutly", our claim to be "god as a human" as a way to be sure we "are" when everything in our limited life proves us that "as a limited person" we "are" not we only "exist". If you don't have satisfaction, you're still trying to move toward satisfaction. Maybe you enjoy it, maybe not. The joy you get from getting what you want is the result of no longer seeking something. It doesn't last long. Something more(than a relative satisfaction of a relative desire) is at stakes. Something you look for through the "joy" and through succeeding to get the "joy"you talk about. If you don't get the satisfaction not only you don't get this "joy" (happyness) but you "suffer" from not having succeed to get the "joy". How comes? |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 6, 2013 7:49:22 GMT -8
The intensity of the desire is proportional to the anticipated reward. IOW, reward drives desire. Relief seems to be the reward. That's why those who work towards perfection or some kind of final accomplishment will end up very sad and disappointed. You recommend dullness and mediocrity? |
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Post by enigma on Feb 6, 2013 11:10:23 GMT -8
The intensity of the desire is proportional to the anticipated reward. IOW, reward drives desire. Relief seems to be the reward. Yes, it's the relief from wanting that actually brings contentment and Peace. Getting what we want ends the want temporarily. When mind concludes that the contenment was really the result of getting satisfaction, and can't continue to find satisfaction in the attainment, then it starts another movement toward something else. Another want. Yes, the endless roller coaster ride. Getting off the roller coaster may seem that way at first.  |
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Post by roberto on Feb 6, 2013 11:26:18 GMT -8
Getting off the roller coaster may seem that way at first. When the mind is still producing a storm of desires even watching a beautiful sunset will be dull and mediocre. When the mind stops producing desires, there are no thoughts of dullness or mediocrity because there are no thoughts about something else to compare this moment to. Nothing is gained, there is only the absence of thoughts of about dullness and mediocrity. |
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