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Post by james on Jan 26, 2013 1:28:12 GMT -8
It does seem ridiculous. I need to get some clarity on that whole episode (will investigate). I think I spot Giraffe tracks of some sort. No. My comment wasn't meant that way. No need to analyze that further. Why should you analyze that? To prevent it from happening again? That would be missing the point I was trying to make. What happened, happened. Now what? Now is real. K. I suspected that this whole business of subtly giving myself a pat on the head for dealing with something a certain way was a bit off. Yes, now what. A shower. |
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Post by Reefs on Jan 26, 2013 1:33:26 GMT -8
Thanks. BTW the whole intermediary thing is very clearly communicated by you and enigma. I'm pretty much always amazed at the clarity you guys bring. Funny how I as a seeker feel like I can recognize clarity but can't produce much of my own independently (some though, based on mini-realizations). Yes, I think intermediary is a very precise word for what's happening. And it's kinda neutral in its meaning. I'd say you only recognize the clarity you are up for. We post the same stuff since years, maybe modified a few terms in the meantime but basically it's always the same. It's important that you find your own set of words over time. That's when reading the scriptures and masters can be useful. It's kinda funny actually. When the seeker reads the scriptures and masters, it's more hindering than helping because the seeker can't stop imagining and tends to become a thought guru by just comparing quotes. So one could say that the scriptures and dialogs of the masters are actually for those who already see clearly. The confused can't handle them. |
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Post by Reefs on Jan 26, 2013 1:40:54 GMT -8
K. I suspected that this whole business of subtly giving myself a pat on the head for dealing with something a certain way was a bit off.
Yes, now what. A shower. So what? Now what? Next activity.  |
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Post by james on Jan 26, 2013 1:50:13 GMT -8
<tweet>Mall.</tweet>  |
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Post by relinquish on Jan 26, 2013 12:46:35 GMT -8
That seems to be a bit koan-like for me.
Some meditation techniques (e.g. zen, vipassana) instruct the practitioner to 'let everything be as it is' ('just sitting' or 'perfect equanimity'), whilst at the same mandating 'strong sitting' (correct posture, motionlessness).
So in one way just letting the foot being in pain and observing it is in line with the instruction (vipassana certainly). But in another way 'letting everything be as it is' (without control) would seem to INCLUDE moving the foot.
But then I see the value of (the person) not yielding to all body/mind demands, in the pursuit of breaking through into a different
perspective and investigation that is otherwise occluded.
--
I am coming to recognize recently (although I've heard for a long time) that true meditation should lead to a disappearance of the meditator. Another bit of paradox - 'use the apparent meditator to remove the meditator' (like thorn to remove thorn?).
Unfortunately my meditations have NEVER removed the meditator. Quite possibly because I did this split mind witness trick thing early on and ran with it. This dead end situation (if that's what it is, and I'm getting the feeling it is, dammit it must be if I've been meditating on and off with varying intensities for 3 or 4 years and never removed the meditator) may take some while to back out of. Still, if it needs to be done...
So in meditation I might've always been a meditator watching internal objects. I have no real idea how to transcend that (or to encourage its transcendance) or what it might be like if it happened. It doesn't involve splitting-off, but at the same time it seems like it must involve a watcher and the watched, and the 'watched' must include the person? Or does the person not get watched because it disappears?
Edit: Added last paragraph as follow-up thought. The natural impulse would be to relax your foot even before it gets painful. Sure, you can shift attention away from your pain but why would you do that? I'd say meditator here is just another word for intermediary. You clearly did meditation to get somewhere. That's not meditation. That's an exercise. You've probably read too much about what should happen during meditation so there's expectation. Maybe just try staying with your breath instead of watching your thoughts, let it all fall into place naturally. James: That very last thing that Reefs says here; "let it all fall into place naturally.", is very good advice. That said, take a look at my second sig; "To fall into place is to fall apart. To fall apart is to fall into place. They are actually the same, to the negation of 'both'. Can you see what I am trying to say with this? |
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Post by james on Jan 27, 2013 1:05:56 GMT -8
To let things flow naturally is to let the controller fall apart? To let the controller fall apart is to let things flow naturally?
If this isn't it, could you define the two phases differently (fall apart, fall into place)?
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Post by relinquish on Jan 27, 2013 2:03:20 GMT -8
To let things flow naturally is to let the controller fall apart? To let the controller fall apart is to let things flow naturally? If this isn't it, could you define the two phases differently (fall apart, fall into place)? Well, that works too, but it's not what I'm saying. What I mean is that in Life, things will sometimes seem to fall into place (like getting into the 'groove' of meditating properly), and also things will sometimes seem to fall apart (like getting totally distracted by whatever and not being able to sustain that groove and just giving up). What I'm trying to say is that ultimately, no matter what happens, it's all already perfect and complete. Even if it only ever seems like everything is falling apart, everything is still only ever falling into it's perfect place. Imperfection can never actually come into being. Only mind says something is imperfect, incomplete or wrong. Ultimately, Existence itself has never and will never fall into place, and it has never and never fall apart. It just IS.  |
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Post by james on Jan 27, 2013 2:51:42 GMT -8
Mind sees it, but it isn't yet realized. Many a time I've seen stillness in the eye of a storm. But something still needs to click. Even if the thing that needs to click is that nothing needs to click. And it's a non-intellectual click. I can't click it.
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Post by relinquish on Jan 27, 2013 3:33:36 GMT -8
Mind sees it, but it isn't yet realized. Many a time I've seen stillness in the eye of a storm. But something still needs to click. Even if the thing that needs to click is that nothing needs to click. And it's a non-intellectual click. I can't click it. I suggest you let go of any expectations you may have about what will occur after the 'clicking' takes place. As long as you hold onto those expectations, you will be waiting for them to happen as a criteria you can use to say, "Yes, it has clicked". Only what can happen will happen. |
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Post by james on Jan 27, 2013 4:03:54 GMT -8
Yes, I think I see what you're saying. Expectations/speculations are useless and may hinder. I'm slowly getting that message.
It is enough just be open to what is, and drop attempts to manipulate what is into any particular form/direction. Acceptance of what is with no expectation.
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Post by Reefs on Jan 27, 2013 6:52:25 GMT -8
Mind sees it, but it isn't yet realized. Many a time I've seen stillness in the eye of a storm. But something still needs to click. Even if the thing that needs to click is that nothing needs to click. And it's a non-intellectual click. I can't click it. The power of futility comes to mind. |
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Post by james on Jan 27, 2013 7:28:47 GMT -8
Could you clarify what you mean?
The power of futility to...
1) Keep a body/mind busy with being asleep (without knowing what they are doing is futile of course)
2) To eventually help wake a body/mind up because they realize (1)
3) Both of the above
4) ...something else?
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Post by Reefs on Jan 27, 2013 7:40:30 GMT -8
Could you clarify what you mean?
The power of futility to...
1) Keep a body/mind busy with being asleep (without knowing what they are doing is futile of course)
2) To eventually help wake a body/mind up because they realize (1)
3) Both of the above
4) ...something else? I mentioned it in the context of trying to force a 'click'. I don't know if mere intellectual understand of the futility of any kind of effort will trigger a real 'click' but at least it will give you some relief from trying so hard. When you know and understand that mediation and observing the meditator and such won't bring you full clarity, then you could just sit down and meditate instead of practicing meditation. |
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Post by beingist on Jan 27, 2013 8:05:09 GMT -8
Could you clarify what you mean?
The power of futility to...
1) Keep a body/mind busy with being asleep (without knowing what they are doing is futile of course)
2) To eventually help wake a body/mind up because they realize (1)
3) Both of the above
4) ...something else? I mentioned it in the context of trying to force a 'click'. I don't know if mere intellectual understand of the futility of any kind of effort will trigger a real 'click' but at least it will give you some relief from trying so hard. When you know and understand that mediation and observing the meditator and such won't bring you full clarity, then you could just sit down and meditate instead of practicing meditation. Yes!  |
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Post by james on Jan 27, 2013 8:37:46 GMT -8
I am really understanding this meditation vs practicing meditation situation. Not only have you pointed it out here on this forum, but it's coming in from a few other angles. You know how that happens... The same things being said/written endlessly, but you can't really hear it until the time is right...
Sometimes I read posts/books and have this real feeling of 'I can read the words and I know there is something really valuable here, BUT I just can't really SEE it properly'. I.e. it is lost on me and my current point in the journey.
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