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Post by silence on Jan 24, 2013 7:24:41 GMT -8
You want real 'clarity' or you want to feel good all the time? You can't feel good all the time. You wouldn't know what feeling good was without the opposite. I want clarity. I also want to stop believing the stories and crazy thoughts. Mainly, I want the Truth. I'm under no illusions about it being a feel good, happy place. I've read enough and been communicating with you guys enough to at least know that. I am at the 'can't be bothered' with it all anymore stage..and yet here I am, over and over again. You guys must be getting very impatient with me! What does it mean to you to say you want the Truth? (serious question).
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2013 8:17:48 GMT -8
Seems to me like you're quickly approaching the futility of the practices you've been doing in regards to creating a continuous sense of well being and happiness. Rather than embrace that futility, you see a gaping black hole that will lead to depression and a life of fruitless searching. It's precisely that sense of utter failure that you don't want to touch that will set you free. I look forward to it ;-) Seriously though it's seriously out of my control. What I'm trying to say is that I was depressed, then LoA, positive thinking helped. Then starting to look at conditioning and beliefs helps tonnes. Now I'm not depressed. Instead (as you can sense) I'm frustrated by not being able to have that real 'clarity'. It doesn't sound like you believe it's out of your control. It sounds like you employed LOA, positive thinking and looking practices to cure your depression. Doesn't it make sense that 'real clarity' may be waiting for you to find the next practice that works?
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Post by jasonlynch on Jan 24, 2013 8:37:42 GMT -8
Waddup spongemeister. I wouldn't say that a person can do the looking, but rather, that the person itself is looked at. As what is conscious of the movement of thought, becomes conscious that its not part of that movement, the 'looking' unravels the illusion that what you are is tied up in the mind, or put another way, the mind itself that can look or attend to things. More often than not, the activities of looking and attending (i call them activities only to address the illusion that mind thinks it can do them) are performed or practiced under the assumption they will alter the experience in some way, some way which will make the experience better than its been. Noticing illusion to be an illusion has nothing to do with improving the illusion, implicitly. Simultaneously, a fully conscious mind will function more efficiently than one riddled in contradictory thought processes. And that phenomena does lead to a better experience, but not because of what's been added to the illusion, but rather, what's been taken away from it. I try not to talk about attending or looking as something to do, but rather, something one allows to be done. The idea that a person is looking or attending to something, is just an idea, and is itself, looked at. Unraveling untrue ideas can lead to the clear seeing that you aren't an idea that can do something. That idea is a terrible burden. With all that said, I have a toaster oven and some baked chacken to attend to! Will read this when get more time later..(just so you know I'm not ignoring you!) Ignoring is always an option spongey
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Post by silence on Jan 24, 2013 9:03:53 GMT -8
I look forward to it ;-) Seriously though it's seriously out of my control. What I'm trying to say is that I was depressed, then LoA, positive thinking helped. Then starting to look at conditioning and beliefs helps tonnes. Now I'm not depressed. Instead (as you can sense) I'm frustrated by not being able to have that real 'clarity'. It doesn't sound like you believe it's out of your control. It sounds like you employed LOA, positive thinking and looking practices to cure your depression. Doesn't it make sense that 'real clarity' may be waiting for you to find the next practice that works? That's basically what I see too. The bottom of that barrel hasn't been touched yet. Surrender doesn't stand a chance contrasted with personal hope that basically runs in the background saying "I can do it!".
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2013 9:07:47 GMT -8
You want real 'clarity' or you want to feel good all the time? You can't feel good all the time. You wouldn't know what feeling good was without the opposite. Wouldn't it also be true that you can't feel bad all the time? Could you have remained in a state of depression if you had not done LOA and positive thinking? How would you know what feeling bad was without the opposite? Doesn't that mean that it was inevitable that you would feel good again? Then lets look at the story that positive thinking is keeping you from being depressed. Which one of these is true: 1) Like attracts like. 2) Opposites attract.
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2013 9:40:46 GMT -8
It doesn't sound like you believe it's out of your control. It sounds like you employed LOA, positive thinking and looking practices to cure your depression. Doesn't it make sense that 'real clarity' may be waiting for you to find the next practice that works? That's basically what I see too. The bottom of that barrel hasn't been touched yet. Surrender doesn't stand a chance contrasted with personal hope that basically runs in the background saying "I can do it!". Yes, any and all self improvement that she has been engaged in has been a movement only. She imagines she's at the "can't be bothered with it all anymore stage", but that would mean stopping the movement and she would find out that her happiness quotient hasn't changed overall for her whole life, and so here she is "over and over again", looking for a way to keep that movement going while imagining she's looking forward to it stopping. The only way I know to approach it is to challenge the belief that a positive thinking practice is what caused her to get out of depression rather than the depression itself. Dissatisfaction results in movement. If we sit on a tack, we naturally move, but it would be an error to assume that this movement resulted from a standing practice that we mastered, or that this standing practice gets us somewhere other than where we were before we sat down.
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Post by spongey on Jan 24, 2013 15:00:45 GMT -8
I will. I get what you're saying E, it's all makes perfect sense of course, what I'm trying to say is, how much more looking can one do? Waddup spongemeister. I wouldn't say that a person can do the looking, but rather, that the person itself is looked at. As what is conscious of the movement of thought, becomes conscious that its not part of that movement, the 'looking' unravels the illusion that what you are is tied up in the mind, or put another way, the mind itself that can look or attend to things. More often than not, the activities of looking and attending (i call them activities only to address the illusion that mind thinks it can do them) are performed or practiced under the assumption they will alter the experience in some way, some way which will make the experience better than its been. Noticing illusion to be an illusion has nothing to do with improving the illusion, implicitly. Simultaneously, a fully conscious mind will function more efficiently than one riddled in contradictory thought processes. And that phenomena does lead to a better experience, but not because of what's been added to the illusion, but rather, what's been taken away from it. I try not to talk about attending or looking as something to do, but rather, something one allows to be done. The idea that a person is looking or attending to something, is just an idea, and is itself, looked at. Unraveling untrue ideas can lead to the clear seeing that you aren't an idea that can do something. That idea is a terrible burden. With all that said, I have a toaster oven and some baked chacken to attend to! This is the issue. When I read posts like this, as a few on here will tell you, I do see it. How can illusion fix illusion. It cracks me up! Yet time and time again I just forget it!
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Post by spongey on Jan 24, 2013 15:03:17 GMT -8
You can't feel good all the time. You wouldn't know what feeling good was without the opposite. I want clarity. I also want to stop believing the stories and crazy thoughts. Mainly, I want the Truth. I'm under no illusions about it being a feel good, happy place. I've read enough and been communicating with you guys enough to at least know that. I am at the 'can't be bothered' with it all anymore stage..and yet here I am, over and over again. You guys must be getting very impatient with me! What does it mean to you to say you want the Truth? (serious question). It's a good question. It's an understanding of life I'm looking for I guess. I want to feel that I am not just these thoughts. I want to know it with my heart.
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Post by spongey on Jan 24, 2013 15:11:35 GMT -8
I look forward to it ;-) Seriously though it's seriously out of my control. What I'm trying to say is that I was depressed, then LoA, positive thinking helped. Then starting to look at conditioning and beliefs helps tonnes. Now I'm not depressed. Instead (as you can sense) I'm frustrated by not being able to have that real 'clarity'. It doesn't sound like you believe it's out of your control. It sounds like you employed LOA, positive thinking and looking practices to cure your depression. Doesn't it make sense that 'real clarity' may be waiting for you to find the next practice that works? What I meant was out of my control is all this searching. I did employ those things to help cure depression and it worked temporarily which is better than nothing sometimes. I have always had v dark episodes but not for over a year and a half now. It just doesn't happen. I can look at a story mid-way through and it creates space. I feel happier. (Full stop).
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Post by spongey on Jan 24, 2013 15:16:07 GMT -8
It doesn't sound like you believe it's out of your control. It sounds like you employed LOA, positive thinking and looking practices to cure your depression. Doesn't it make sense that 'real clarity' may be waiting for you to find the next practice that works? That's basically what I see too. The bottom of that barrel hasn't been touched yet. Surrender doesn't stand a chance contrasted with personal hope that basically runs in the background saying "I can do it!". I feel like this is all about me saying 'how can I be happy?' it's not. I was merely pointing out that those practices appear to work. Obviously you're not going to be in a permanent 'happy' state (nobody likes those people anyway😉) however, if you are able to stop feeling suicidal and have a more general sense of well-being am all for it. For me, who is now in a good place on the whole, it's about self-realization.
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Post by spongey on Jan 24, 2013 15:21:28 GMT -8
You can't feel good all the time. You wouldn't know what feeling good was without the opposite. Wouldn't it also be true that you can't feel bad all the time? Could you have remained in a state of depression if you had not done LOA and positive thinking? How would you know what feeling bad was without the opposite? Doesn't that mean that it was inevitable that you would feel good again? Then lets look at the story that positive thinking is keeping you from being depressed. Which one of these is true: 1) Like attracts like. 2) Opposites attract. I believe like attracts like but as I said it's not My story.
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2013 18:26:01 GMT -8
It doesn't sound like you believe it's out of your control. It sounds like you employed LOA, positive thinking and looking practices to cure your depression. Doesn't it make sense that 'real clarity' may be waiting for you to find the next practice that works? What I meant was out of my control is all this searching. I did employ those things to help cure depression and it worked temporarily which is better than nothing sometimes. I have always had v dark episodes but not for over a year and a half now. It just doesn't happen. I can look at a story mid-way through and it creates space. I feel happier. (Full stop). My purpose is not to rob you of your happiness, which I can't do anyway, but to rob you of your belief that you caused it. Had you done nothing at all, your depression would have left in similar fashion. What you did was an expression of your willingness to leave depression behind, and willingness is all it takes. As you imply, you can't know depression without happiness, so the only question was how long you could remain depressed before you began to forget what it means. You needed happiness to define your depression, and so it was ultimately unavoidable. You no doubt gave yourself moments or periods of happiness now and then in order to 'recharge' your depression, but ultimately your experience must balance itself out. This may be a roller coaster or a fairly level ride with little bumps, but you always stand at the precise center of your own imagined experience.
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2013 18:55:23 GMT -8
That's basically what I see too. The bottom of that barrel hasn't been touched yet. Surrender doesn't stand a chance contrasted with personal hope that basically runs in the background saying "I can do it!". I feel like this is all about me saying 'how can I be happy?' Gnaw, i wasn't reading it that way. what I'm hearing is that you caused a greater sense of well being for yourself, so some arbitrary line has to be drawn by you to define what you can and can't change. This is what Silence means when he said you haven't touched the bottom of the futility barrel, or whatever he said. hehe. Anyhoo, I'm curious where you draw that line between what can and can't be controlled.
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2013 19:01:24 GMT -8
Wouldn't it also be true that you can't feel bad all the time? Could you have remained in a state of depression if you had not done LOA and positive thinking? How would you know what feeling bad was without the opposite? Doesn't that mean that it was inevitable that you would feel good again? Then lets look at the story that positive thinking is keeping you from being depressed. Which one of these is true: 1) Like attracts like. 2) Opposites attract. I believe like attracts like but as I said it's not My story. Apparently, opposites attract too. Male/female, electrical and subatomic particles. You said you can't know one polarity without the other, so apparently dualistic polarities 'attract' also, and in fact are inseparable, like two sides of the same coin. So how do know happy thoughts, and what do they attract?
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Post by beingist on Jan 24, 2013 20:44:01 GMT -8
What does it mean to you to say you want the Truth? (serious question). It's a good question. It's an understanding of life I'm looking for I guess. I want to feel that I am not just these thoughts. I want to know it with my heart. Holy smokes, just wait until it hits your whole being!
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