burt
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Posts: 198
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Post by burt on Jul 4, 2013 10:29:11 GMT -8
whoooooooooooaaaa there horsey! not so fast! What Portto said is really really important here: "what is a person?" I suggest you start this way: first ask "am I a person?" If you say "yes", that's fine, that's ok. There's no wrong answer to a question like this, just the answer that you'd give. If you say "yes, I am a person", that's where some fun can begin, because now you can start asking questions about what it means to be a person ... what a person is, what a person isn't. I've seen you resonate when figgy and Andrew talk about "letting go". What I'll point out to you is that: "am I ___?" ... is "I am ____" in reverse ... now if you asked figgy and Andrew what they mean by "letting go", by "releasing an attachment", and if they were to answer free of phrogotics, they would tell you that such a release amounts to dropping something that fills in that blank: "I am strong" "I am weak" "I am vulnerable" "I am in control" So ... are you a person? (___________)..mphgrgl? whelp, likes I says ... ain't no wrong answer ta' dat'  ... it's jest that ... I can'ts understands yous ...  |
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Post by silvery1 on Jul 5, 2013 10:21:41 GMT -8
whelp, likes I says ... ain't no wrong answer ta' dat' ... it's jest that ... I can'ts understands yous ... It is most unfortunate that I often don't grok what you're saying - hence the garbled 'answer'. Add to that, I'm not clear on what phrogotics means or implies....a little help? |
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burt
Member
Posts: 198
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Post by burt on Jul 5, 2013 15:19:32 GMT -8
whelp, likes I says ... ain't no wrong answer ta' dat' ... it's jest that ... I can'ts understands yous ... It is most unfortunate that I often don't grok what you're saying - hence the garbled 'answer'. Add to that, I'm not clear on what phrogotics means or implies....a little help? You didn't understand the question, "are you a person?"? |
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Post by silvery1 on Jul 5, 2013 17:38:46 GMT -8
It is most unfortunate that I often don't grok what you're saying - hence the garbled 'answer'. Add to that, I'm not clear on what phrogotics means or implies....a little help? You didn't understand the question, "are you a person?"? Um, other stuff was said, too, and I'm not always sure if you're pondering stuff out loud or if you're really asking (someone) a question. I'll say yes I'm a person. Strange experiences are being had, but they're being 'had' by me - a person. |
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burt
Member
Posts: 198
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Post by burt on Jul 5, 2013 23:56:03 GMT -8
Um, other stuff was said, too, and I'm not always sure if you're pondering stuff out loud or if you're really asking (someone) a question. Yeah I know ... I like to talk so much that sometimes I talk too much.  I'll say yes I'm a person. Strange experiences are being had, but they're being 'had' by me - a person. Thank you for what I perceive as an honest answer. There is no wrong answer to a question like that, just either honest answers or not honest answers. Do you have any interest in what you are? By that I mean, are you interested in exploring Portto's question from here: But what is a person, really? |
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Post by silvery1 on Jul 6, 2013 1:02:50 GMT -8
Um, other stuff was said, too, and I'm not always sure if you're pondering stuff out loud or if you're really asking (someone) a question. Yeah I know ... I like to talk so much that sometimes I talk too much. Thank you for what I perceive as an honest answer. There is no wrong answer to a question like that, just either honest answers or not honest answers. Do you have any interest in what you are? By that I mean, are you interested in exploring Portto's question from here: But what is a person, really? Aww, I love that about you - your chattiness - although I could live w/o your cattiness!  So, you want me to answer What is a person? I take it that you mean not in the most basic meaning, but hmm. I'm up cuz I can't sleep (2 am) - you're not going to end up telling me that you and I aren't for real, are you, now? I'm a morning person - I think better then, and all that. I'd like to get an idea of where you're going to guide me and the answer, first. |
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burt
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Posts: 198
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Post by burt on Jul 7, 2013 2:07:47 GMT -8
Yeah I know ... I like to talk so much that sometimes I talk too much. Thank you for what I perceive as an honest answer. There is no wrong answer to a question like that, just either honest answers or not honest answers. Do you have any interest in what you are? By that I mean, are you interested in exploring Portto's question from here: Aww, I love that about you - your chattiness - although I could live w/o your cattiness! So, you want me to answer What is a person? I take it that you mean not in the most basic meaning, but hmm. I'm up cuz I can't sleep (2 am) - you're not going to end up telling me that you and I aren't for real, are you, now? I'm a morning person - I think better then, and all that. I'd like to get an idea of where you're going to guide me and the answer, first. If you and I weren't real what would be the point of asking what we are, and how would we possibly do that? To be clear, this question that I'm asking you to consider isn't one that I can give you some sort of non-open-ended explanation for. This question is one you have to answer for yourself. You have to be completely open-ended in the questioning though. If you go into it with with any sort of expectation or limitation you may as well not go into it at all -- at least on the surface. It's not like you aren't or won't be asking it on some level in every moment of your life but that type of inquiry is unfocused and random; while, in contrast, inquiring directly brings it into focus in a way that you're conscious of it. |
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Post by silvery1 on Jul 8, 2013 9:28:04 GMT -8
Aww, I love that about you - your chattiness - although I could live w/o your cattiness! So, you want me to answer What is a person? I take it that you mean not in the most basic meaning, but hmm. I'm up cuz I can't sleep (2 am) - you're not going to end up telling me that you and I aren't for real, are you, now? I'm a morning person - I think better then, and all that. I'd like to get an idea of where you're going to guide me and the answer, first. If you and I weren't real what would be the point of asking what we are, and how would we possibly do that? To be clear, this question that I'm asking you to consider isn't one that I can give you some sort of non-open-ended explanation for. This question is one you have to answer for yourself. You have to be completely open-ended in the questioning though. If you go into it with with any sort of expectation or limitation you may as well not go into it at all -- at least on the surface. It's not like you aren't or won't be asking it on some level in every moment of your life but that type of inquiry is unfocused and random; while, in contrast, inquiring directly brings it into focus in a way that you're conscious of it. Well---to be clear, your talk has always confused me. My first question would be if you are saying yes, we're real, then what's the point of asking if 'Am I a person?"? I/we are not cats, dogs, horses, chickens, cows, bricks, and so on. It seems you're trying to get people, with this question, to open up to the idea or fact of that thing about awareness being the prime state of being. |
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burt
Member
Posts: 198
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Post by burt on Jul 8, 2013 14:06:38 GMT -8
If you and I weren't real what would be the point of asking what we are, and how would we possibly do that? To be clear, this question that I'm asking you to consider isn't one that I can give you some sort of non-open-ended explanation for. This question is one you have to answer for yourself. You have to be completely open-ended in the questioning though. If you go into it with with any sort of expectation or limitation you may as well not go into it at all -- at least on the surface. It's not like you aren't or won't be asking it on some level in every moment of your life but that type of inquiry is unfocused and random; while, in contrast, inquiring directly brings it into focus in a way that you're conscious of it. Well---to be clear, your talk has always confused me. My first question would be if you are saying yes, we're real, then what's the point of asking if 'Am I a person?"? I/we are not cats, dogs, horses, chickens, cows, bricks, and so on. Are you at all curious as to what you are? Let's say for the sake of argument that you are curious about what you are and embark on an explicit and explicitly conscious course self-inquiry: would you expect expectations or preconceptions to help or get in the way of that course? If you don't trust me on this then you dont ... you know I'll still loves ya anyways! But the bottom line is that I asked you "are you a person?" and you said "yes". I'm not giving you a ration about that answer, I'm just taking it on face value.  . The question to you at this point, is do you have any interest in Portto's question: But what is a person, really? Well, do you? |
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Post by silvery1 on Jul 8, 2013 16:23:07 GMT -8
Well---to be clear, your talk has always confused me. My first question would be if you are saying yes, we're real, then what's the point of asking if 'Am I a person?"? I/we are not cats, dogs, horses, chickens, cows, bricks, and so on. Are you at all curious as to what you are? Let's say for the sake of argument that you are curious about what you are and embark on an explicit and explicitly conscious course self-inquiry: would you expect expectations or preconceptions to help or get in the way of that course? If you don't trust me on this then you dont ... you know I'll still loves ya anyways! But the bottom line is that I asked you "are you a person?" and you said "yes". I'm not giving you a ration about that answer, I'm just taking it on face value. . The question to you at this point, is do you have any interest in Portto's question: But what is a person, really? Well, do you? I'm sorry, it got a bit confusing. I was thinking the question was am I a person, not what IS a person. Yeah - aside from homo sapiens and all that, of course. Right? I know I gotta be sounding dense to you right about now, but I don't want to trip up on answering - I don't always like it any more than you do, but I can be blunt, and I often want to get right to the point - yes no maybe heh. Sometimes 'your' questions (around here) can be like is it a trick like opening a can and a snake jumps out - I have a limited tolerance for some surprises. Hope you can appreciate where I'm going with this. |
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burt
Member
Posts: 198
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Post by burt on Jul 9, 2013 6:17:05 GMT -8
Are you at all curious as to what you are? Let's say for the sake of argument that you are curious about what you are and embark on an explicit and explicitly conscious course self-inquiry: would you expect expectations or preconceptions to help or get in the way of that course? If you don't trust me on this then you dont ... you know I'll still loves ya anyways! But the bottom line is that I asked you "are you a person?" and you said "yes". I'm not giving you a ration about that answer, I'm just taking it on face value. . The question to you at this point, is do you have any interest in Portto's question: Well, do you? I'm sorry, it got a bit confusing. I was thinking the question was am I a person, not what IS a person. Yeah - aside from homo sapiens and all that, of course. Right? I know I gotta be sounding dense to you right about now, but I don't want to trip up on answering - I don't always like it any more than you do, but I can be blunt, and I often want to get right to the point - yes no maybe heh. Sometimes 'your' questions (around here) can be like is it a trick like opening a can and a snake jumps out - I have a limited tolerance for some surprises. Hope you can appreciate where I'm going with this. I'll take that as a "no". |
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Post by silvery1 on Jul 10, 2013 8:58:26 GMT -8
I'm sorry, it got a bit confusing. I was thinking the question was am I a person, not what IS a person. Yeah - aside from homo sapiens and all that, of course. Right? I know I gotta be sounding dense to you right about now, but I don't want to trip up on answering - I don't always like it any more than you do, but I can be blunt, and I often want to get right to the point - yes no maybe heh. Sometimes 'your' questions (around here) can be like is it a trick like opening a can and a snake jumps out - I have a limited tolerance for some surprises. Hope you can appreciate where I'm going with this. I'll take that as a "no". Well, okay, but I wasn't going in that direction ~ suture self. |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 8, 2013 8:40:49 GMT -8
This can be seen all around us in so many guises. For example, if someone tells you that you are insincere, and you don't at least consider the possibility, then at best you've passed up an opportunity for self-reflection, and at worst you're actually wrong, they're actually right, and you go on lying to yourself. If you look and see that you are true to yourself, and you know it, you know it. The depth of the search, or conversely, the level of temporary confusion during the exploration seems to be related to the level of trust that you place in the source of the challenge. Pascal's wager = belief poker?  |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 8, 2013 8:47:42 GMT -8
Hehe, I had to look it up on Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_WagerQuite interesting, though we can say it's misconceived, being based on the assumption of an immortal separate soul that somehow benefits from certain beliefs in a higher power. Well, it's an identity poker derivative. |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 8, 2013 8:52:46 GMT -8
Hehe, I had to look it up on Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_WagerQuite interesting, though we can say it's misconceived, being based on the assumption of an immortal separate soul that somehow benefits from certain beliefs in a higher power. Yes, in the form that Pascal originally posed it, no doubt. Here's another form. I see meditation and other practice as a way to address what ZD referred to as the reassertion of the dominance of mind. To be repetitive but clear here, practice to me embodies a paradox as it is of course futile, and the only practice that's worthy of the name is the practice of what we're never not, which is here and now. In this context, practice is a tuning, a training of mind to lessen the probability of the reassertion of its dominance. The practice is analogous to Pascal's belief in God -- might as well practice "just in case". Do you have a link or a quote where ZD explains this? I'd say practice in that sense is just mind dealing with the aftermath of realization. 'Just in case' sounds like hedging your bet. IOW, TMT.  |
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