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Post by enigma on Apr 18, 2013 12:49:58 GMT -8
It seem folks have all sorts of ideas about what 'knowing nothing' means, but what it really means is that there's nothing to know.
"I know that I know nothing"
Socrates
Of course, we're talking in the sense of knowledge that is ultimately true, and there isn't any. This actually makes the realization of truth very simple even as our clinging to ideas makes it very difficult.
I like Jed Mckenna's approach as it manages to avoid anything particularly woo woo about this realization and focuses on challenging what we think we know.
"Remember, there's nothing to know. Kill the guru. No head full of spiritual knowledge or wall full of spiritual books can ever be other than an anchor.All forward motion depends on release, not gain. Only that knowledge which destroys knowledge facilitates progress. Don't seek external validation, be your own guru. Students don't make journeys and travelers don't sit in classrooms. This little caution bears emphasizing because our compelling tendency toward spiritual inertia is why the most spiritually knowledgeable, respected, and dedicated, are not themselves awake."
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Post by Gopal on May 13, 2013 21:06:00 GMT -8
There is no problem, but seeking is the problem which we need to know, isn't it? happiness and unhappiness are sides of the same coin, this we need to know,isn't it? otherwise we ever seeking for happiness. So we need to KNOW the truth to avoid suffering isn't it?
RAJ
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Post by enigma on May 13, 2013 23:12:32 GMT -8
There is no problem, but seeking is the problem which we need to know, isn't it? happiness and unhappiness are sides of the same coin, this we need to know,isn't it? otherwise we ever seeking for happiness. So we need to KNOW the truth to avoid suffering isn't it? RAJ You only need to unknow. Permanent happiness is pursued because it is believed that it can be found. This is an idea that is not true. You don't need to know anything about this except that it isn't true. Seeking happens because it is believed there is something to be found. You don't need to know something about seeking. You need to stop believing in the idea that there is something to be found. Is freedom possible simply by ceasing to believe your ideas? Find out. |
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Post by Gopal on May 14, 2013 2:30:05 GMT -8
I am not denying the fact that seeking wouldn't give you the answer, because seeking put us in a never ending searching mode. It seems to bring the answer and then it breaks the answer with some other logic. I do admit seeking won't give answer, But that doesn't mean that there is no answer . But the fact is answer can't be known through seeking, But it can be known through direct seeing. When I see happy/unhappy roller coaster, I came to know the answer that permanent happiness is not possible. So answer is there but that can't be found by seeking.
I know nothing in the beginning , at certain point of time i start to believe that permanent happiness is possible, but once i directly seen the truth, I haven't gone to my original state, I came up with an answer that permanent happiness is not possible, May be this might break my old belief what you call as unknow, But this is an answer I have now.
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Post by enigma on May 14, 2013 8:06:10 GMT -8
I am not denying the fact that seeking wouldn't give you the answer, because seeking put us in a never ending searching mode. It seems to bring the answer and then it breaks the answer with some other logic. I do admit seeking won't give answer, But that doesn't mean that there is no answer . But the fact is answer can't be known through seeking, But it can be known through direct seeing. When I see happy/unhappy roller coaster, I came to know the answer that permanent happiness is not possible. So answer is there but that can't be found by seeking. I know nothing in the beginning , at certain point of time i start to believe that permanent happiness is possible, but once i directly seen the truth, I haven't gone to my original state, I came up with an answer that permanent happiness is not possible, May be this might break my old belief what you call as unknow, But this is an answer I have now. Seeing through the question is not the same as finding an answer. Don't let the form of the question fool you into believing it's valid. The question is, 'How can I find permanent happiness?' The answer is that you can't. The answer is that the question is misconceived. You haven't found a valid answer to a valid question, you've invalidated the question. It's important because this is the fate of all existential questions. An answer is not arrived at through a process of logic. Rather, the question is seen for what it is, and is dissolved in that seeing. There's no such thing as a valid answer to an invalid question. |
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Post by Gopal on May 14, 2013 9:28:32 GMT -8
Yes this makes sense, But happiness can't be permanent and this i would like to call this as truth, This can be found through the direct seeing,isn't it? That truth stops me to search the happiness,isn't it?
Raj
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Post by enigma on May 14, 2013 9:53:41 GMT -8
Yes this makes sense, But happiness can't be permanent and this i would like to call this as truth, This can be found through the direct seeing,isn't it? That truth stops me to search the happiness,isn't it? Raj Yes, but there's a critical point to be made here about what we're calling truth. It makes a great deal of difference whether truth is the acquisition of knowledge or the loss of knowledge. Is it the answer to one's questions or the seeing of the questions as illusory misconceptions? In the first case, one seeks knowledge and therefore employs logic, reason and thinking in order to find it. In the second case, one sees the questions as having no real foundation, and simply stops seeking answers. For example, the question as to whether or not one has free will does not result in a yes or no answer. The question is based on the idea that there is a separate individual who is asking the question and wants to know if he is in control of his life or if his life is controlled by fate or destiny, neither of which is true, and so the question is utterly misconceived and is therefore irrelevant. It does not require an answer. What is needed is to see through the question. I think you're familiar with the non-teaching of UG Krishnamurti, and that's what he was trying to say: your questions are nonsense and irrelevant, and serve only to perpetuate the imaginary seeker. As such, truth is not a conceptual answer, not the acquisition of knowledge but rather the loss of the knowledge that was at the root of the question. The only reason a valid answer seems to appear is because it is believed to be a valid question. If the question is not valid, then neither is the answer. |
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Post by Gopal on May 15, 2013 0:53:53 GMT -8
hi,
I am bit confused,Ok, I am not a separate individual so what if I rised the question volition is true or not? What If I arrived the right conclusion of volition is illusion? I am rising a question whether or not I have freewill or not. Now I am arriving at the conclusion volition is illusion, freewill is illusion, I got the answer to my question, and also my answer is also a unquestionable truth. Truth is there, but can't be sought, that might the conclusion, Question may lead to the right answer, but that might not be possible by seeking, but that might be possible by directing looking like I realized happiness can't be experienced without unhappiness. How can I find permanent happiness? this question might be misconceived, but what if permanent happiness is possible or not?this question is not the misconceived for the answer of happiness is not attainable,isn't it?
RAJ
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Post by Reefs on Sept 14, 2013 7:02:40 GMT -8
There is no problem, but seeking is the problem which we need to know, isn't it? happiness and unhappiness are sides of the same coin, this we need to know,isn't it? otherwise we ever seeking for happiness. So we need to KNOW the truth to avoid suffering isn't it? RAJ Actually, all you have to be concerned about is your natural state. The natural state, defined as a goal, might be translated into seeking happiness. |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 14, 2013 7:06:39 GMT -8
There is no problem, but seeking is the problem which we need to know, isn't it? happiness and unhappiness are sides of the same coin, this we need to know,isn't it? otherwise we ever seeking for happiness. So we need to KNOW the truth to avoid suffering isn't it? RAJ You only need to unknow. Permanent happiness is pursued because it is believed that it can be found. This is an idea that is not true. You don't need to know anything about this except that it isn't true. Seeking happens because it is believed there is something to be found. You don't need to know something about seeking. You need to stop believing in the idea that there is something to be found. Is freedom possible simply by ceasing to believe your ideas? Find out. Permanent happiness requires permanent vigilance and tweaking, i.e. effort. The natural state, however, is a given, i.e. effortless. |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 14, 2013 7:07:33 GMT -8
I am not denying the fact that seeking wouldn't give you the answer, because seeking put us in a never ending searching mode. It seems to bring the answer and then it breaks the answer with some other logic. I do admit seeking won't give answer, But that doesn't mean that there is no answer . But the fact is answer can't be known through seeking, But it can be known through direct seeing. When I see happy/unhappy roller coaster, I came to know the answer that permanent happiness is not possible. So answer is there but that can't be found by seeking. I know nothing in the beginning , at certain point of time i start to believe that permanent happiness is possible, but once i directly seen the truth, I haven't gone to my original state, I came up with an answer that permanent happiness is not possible, May be this might break my old belief what you call as unknow, But this is an answer I have now. Did you choose to become a seeker? |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 14, 2013 7:15:07 GMT -8
hi, I am bit confused,Ok, I am not a separate individual so what if I rised the question volition is true or not? What If I arrived the right conclusion of volition is illusion? I am rising a question whether or not I have freewill or not. Now I am arriving at the conclusion volition is illusion, freewill is illusion, I got the answer to my question, and also my answer is also a unquestionable truth. Truth is there, but can't be sought, that might the conclusion, Question may lead to the right answer, but that might not be possible by seeking, but that might be possible by directing looking like I realized happiness can't be experienced without unhappiness. How can I find permanent happiness? this question might be misconceived, but what if permanent happiness is possible or not?this question is not the misconceived for the answer of happiness is not attainable,isn't it? RAJ The question is not if the answer you get is correct or not, the actual question is 'Are these answers relevant or not?' |
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Post by Gopal on Sept 15, 2013 2:54:45 GMT -8
No I did not. It happened naturally.
Why? Answer is relevant to question? How does it differ from getting correct answer?
May i know Is your natural state consist of happy/unhappy movement?
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Post by Reefs on Sept 22, 2013 5:21:22 GMT -8
No I did not. It happened naturally. Precisely. You had nothing to do with it. So do you think you can stop being a seeker at will? What is the answer to the question of volition worth when you can't help but act as if you would have free will? The natural state is nothing private or exclusive. It's prior to the happiness/unhappiness layer. |
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Post by Gopal on Sept 26, 2013 9:28:45 GMT -8
NO, I wouldn't say. I wouldn't say seeking can be stopped. But if i come to know that seeking is also another creation which perpetuate, it automatically stops without my effect.
I am not sure whether I have understood your question. I don't believe in freewill, because I have seen integrated movement of universe around me.But I wouldn't say as God fell into the dream, But I would say everything is predetermined. And also I don't know whether creation continues from everything or nothing but nevertheless there is a deep order.
That's fine. I know of this. But my question is whether you are experiencing happy/unhappy layer in your life?
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