burt
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Post by burt on May 23, 2013 22:50:36 GMT -8
Raj, fwiw I think I see what you mean here and I take E's "pure choice" to be a very different animal than a regular old, run-of-the-mill choice ... his "pure choice" is something that only happens in the context of the dissolution of what appears to choose. No, I'm just talking about an actual choice, like the one you make when you get to a branch in the trail, or when you jump out of an airplane. A regular choice in which all other options are simply released. This is how choices should always be. There is no other way to make a choice but to choose one and release the other. Most of our choices are not like that, and the result is suffering. Physical or psychological withdrawal are excuses for changing one's mind, and mind wants to keep it's options open. Keeping options open is what withdrawal is. We can say. 'Look, my body needs it and it will kill me if it doesn't get it'. Or we'll say, 'I've tried and I can't quit'. Mind games. Humans excel at them. Again, I haven't said that making such a 'pure choice' is easy. ahhh! ok. thanks for the clarification. This is elucidating -- I see your point about self-deception here. |
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burt
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Posts: 198
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Post by burt on May 23, 2013 22:59:42 GMT -8
It doesn't matter whether or not I know if a pure choice has been made, what I'm doing is following your logic to it's conclusion. You say the addiction ends once the pure choice with no split is made, and yes, I see your distinction between outward action and inner state, in that a lifetime addict can live a life without use from a given point onward. But to posit the split at the time that the intent to turn away from the addiction is formed would suggest that the hypothetical ex-addict that actually does make the pure choice would feel no symptoms. I guess that's possible but I'd further guess that it's very unlikely. Yes. I don't see myself guessing and I'm suggesting if a pure choice is made, then there are no withdrawal symptoms. I've heard stories of smokers quitting with no withdrawal, but we would have to call that hearsay. What I see as unlikely is someone who is clearly addicted making such a pure choice. What would be very useful here is some kind of clinical evidence of someone using an addicting drug but for whatever reason doesn't not experience the psychological benefits of it. Maybe this odd patient is given the drug for other medical reasons. It would be interesting to see if there is a body withdrawal in one who is not psychologically addicted. What is this pain felt by the one who has made the pure choice? Sorry, still not quite following. It doesn't surprise me that some people have reported a lack of withdrawal symptoms, but that doesn't necessarily imply the difference between a pure choice and not as it might just be due to a quirk of physiology instead. I'm willing to consider this idea that it's all mind and no matter but I doubt that it's the case and that's where our disagreement lies -- that's how I account for the pain felt by the one who's made the pure choice in that the pain is just a function of chemistry. |
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Post by enigma on May 24, 2013 7:11:57 GMT -8
Yes. I don't see myself guessing and I'm suggesting if a pure choice is made, then there are no withdrawal symptoms. I've heard stories of smokers quitting with no withdrawal, but we would have to call that hearsay. What I see as unlikely is someone who is clearly addicted making such a pure choice. What would be very useful here is some kind of clinical evidence of someone using an addicting drug but for whatever reason doesn't not experience the psychological benefits of it. Maybe this odd patient is given the drug for other medical reasons. It would be interesting to see if there is a body withdrawal in one who is not psychologically addicted. What is this pain felt by the one who has made the pure choice? Sorry, still not quite following. It doesn't surprise me that some people have reported a lack of withdrawal symptoms, but that doesn't necessarily imply the difference between a pure choice and not as it might just be due to a quirk of physiology instead. I'm willing to consider this idea that it's all mind and no matter but I doubt that it's the case and that's where our disagreement lies -- that's how I account for the pain felt by the one who's made the pure choice in that the pain is just a function of chemistry. Okay, I understand what you mean by the pain. I'm suggesting that if a pure choice is made, there is no pain. I'm curious, and I don't know the answer. Is there a substance that can be given to the body which the body does not need, but which causes withdrawal pain if stopped, and which does not provide a psychological benefit? |
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burt
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Posts: 198
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Post by burt on May 24, 2013 16:24:02 GMT -8
It doesn't surprise me that some people have reported a lack of withdrawal symptoms, but that doesn't necessarily imply the difference between a pure choice and not as it might just be due to a quirk of physiology instead. I'm willing to consider this idea that it's all mind and no matter but I doubt that it's the case and that's where our disagreement lies -- that's how I account for the pain felt by the one who's made the pure choice in that the pain is just a function of chemistry. Okay, I understand what you mean by the pain. I'm suggesting that if a pure choice is made, there is no pain. I'm curious, and I don't know the answer. Is there a substance that can be given to the body which the body does not need, but which causes withdrawal pain if stopped, and which does not provide a psychological benefit? I see the point of your question but I'd rephrase it because aren't all those benefits really just one end of a stick? The way I'd pose it would be: is there a substance that has no psychological effect that causes withdrawal pain? It further occurs to me that for something to have no psychological effect it couldn't have any discernible physical effect, because any discernible physical effect would result in a psychological effect. Either way it's posed I can't think of one. |
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Post by enigma on May 24, 2013 16:36:13 GMT -8
Okay, I understand what you mean by the pain. I'm suggesting that if a pure choice is made, there is no pain. I'm curious, and I don't know the answer. Is there a substance that can be given to the body which the body does not need, but which causes withdrawal pain if stopped, and which does not provide a psychological benefit? I see the point of your question but I'd rephrase it because aren't all those benefits really just one end of a stick? The way I'd pose it would be: is there a substance that has no psychological effect that causes withdrawal pain? It further occurs to me that for something to have no psychological effect it couldn't have any discernible physical effect, because any discernible physical effect would result in a psychological effect. Either way it's posed I can't think of one. It also seems like the intensity of withdrawal is proportional to the pleasure producing effects of the substance. I know it's not evidence, and I don't have any evidence. Just reporting what I 'see'. |
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burt
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Posts: 198
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Post by burt on May 25, 2013 10:06:09 GMT -8
I see the point of your question but I'd rephrase it because aren't all those benefits really just one end of a stick? The way I'd pose it would be: is there a substance that has no psychological effect that causes withdrawal pain? It further occurs to me that for something to have no psychological effect it couldn't have any discernible physical effect, because any discernible physical effect would result in a psychological effect. Either way it's posed I can't think of one. It also seems like the intensity of withdrawal is proportional to the pleasure producing effects of the substance. I know it's not evidence, and I don't have any evidence. Just reporting what I 'see'. I had an experience with an opiate in the emergency room decades ago that leads me to conclude that the pleasure producing effects of that line of substances exceeds nicotine by several orders of magnitude, but I've heard it said that the addictive power of nicotine is as strong -- though the withdrawal symptoms do seem less intense than what's described for the opiates. Your opening question in this line of conversation is the salient one: you can never see a pure choice from the outside looking in. You can get a pretty good idea about the absence of one but never certainty about the affirmative. |
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Post by karmarider on May 25, 2013 14:52:37 GMT -8
...I've heard it said that the addictive power of nicotine is as strong... I beleived this for a long time. I smoked for over two decades, quitting for a year here and there, but always going back to it. Each quitting episode was a nightmare. Allen Carr (Easyway) set me straight. The physical withdrawal from nicotine is actually barely noticeable. The intense suffering from quitting nictoine comes from a mental conflict. I know that smokers and ex-smokers will find this hard to believe, as did I. It was quite an eye opener seeing it this way. Quitting the last time was not just easy; it was enjoyable. |
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burt
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Posts: 198
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Post by burt on May 25, 2013 16:35:29 GMT -8
...I've heard it said that the addictive power of nicotine is as strong... I beleived this for a long time. I smoked for over two decades, quitting for a year here and there, but always going back to it. Each quitting episode was a nightmare. Allen Carr (Easyway) set me straight. The physical withdrawal from nicotine is actually barely noticeable. The intense suffering from quitting nictoine comes from a mental conflict. I know that smokers and ex-smokers will find this hard to believe, as did I. It was quite an eye opener seeing it this way. Quitting the last time was not just easy; it was enjoyable. Hey, same KR as over at the Tolle board? For me it was several months walkin' 'round in a fog and one of the worst symptoms I remember was a sort of coating of the mouth ... my tongue and my lips actually itched. This was 15 years before I discovered TPON but the way I did it was "I'm not gonna smoke this next ciggy ... don't know about next week or tomorrow or an hour or even 5 minutes from now, but right now, I ain't gonna' do it." My goal was to go a year. I'll never forget, I quit in the spring and it was like 7 or 8 months later -- the symptoms had died down quite a bit. The craving was still there of course but very low level. Then during some really cold weather I put on this pair of old gloves and after touching my face briefly ... **BAM!** ... my lips puckered up and my mouth fuzzed out and for several hours I was back at like day 2! I don't doubt your personal account and I can't use my example to counter E's argument about pure choice because one of the things I did at the time was to accept that the addiction would be with me for a lifetime -- I was vaguely aware of that idea because of common knowledge of AA methods. Was a struggle but it worked. I can actually smoke recreationally now ... pick it up for a night and drop it. On three occasions with extenuating circumstances I've gotten re-hooked for a few months at a time but it's never that hard to stop once the decisions made. Always chalked that up to the fact that the first time was quitting a 10+ year habit. |
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Post by karmarider on May 25, 2013 20:30:18 GMT -8
Hey, same KR as over at the Tolle board? The same. That's curious. You were using "willpower" or self-discipline to get over the mental conflict of wanting to and not wanting to smoke. I found Allen Carr's method so easy that I think I developed a bit of arrogance over it. A year after quitting I started smoking again (one ciggy here, one there, and pretty soon a pack a day), feeling that I can quit at will now. Which is what I did again. And though it was just as easy to quit again, I did have to work up to it. Your point about pure choice is valid. The withdrawal is very mild but there is some withdrawal, and this is the levarage the mind uses to build up conflict. I cannot explain it as well as Easyway video does. Maybe you've seen through the mental conflict and now it is simply a decision for you. I avoid it altogether. The last time I started it was from recreationally smoking a hookah. Though it's easy to quit, I do have to work up to making the decision, and I feel like since I can quit anytime, I'll quit later not now. |
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burt
Member
Posts: 198
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Post by burt on May 27, 2013 1:58:22 GMT -8
Nice to speak with you again KR. This is Bill, (snowheight).
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Post by karmarider on May 27, 2013 7:27:08 GMT -8
Hey Bill!
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Post by enigma on May 27, 2013 16:43:37 GMT -8
It also seems like the intensity of withdrawal is proportional to the pleasure producing effects of the substance. I know it's not evidence, and I don't have any evidence. Just reporting what I 'see'. I had an experience with an opiate in the emergency room decades ago that leads me to conclude that the pleasure producing effects of that line of substances exceeds nicotine by several orders of magnitude, but I've heard it said that the addictive power of nicotine is as strong -- though the withdrawal symptoms do seem less intense than what's described for the opiates. I've heard that about nicotine as well. My suspicion is that addictive quality is being measured by recidivism rate. That is, more smokers fail to quit than heroine addicts. I've known smokers who would quit on Monday and pick it up again on Friday. It's just what smokers do.  When a heroine addiction is finally taken seriously, it's usually a life threatening situation. Yes, and really the point is not that one should make such a pure choice, as the whole matter of choice is a red herring, but rather the noticing that one is playing a mind game with themselves, which ends that game and leaves one face to face with the actual alternative with no other way out. The addiction may or may not cease, but the internal battle and mind split will. |
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Post by enigma on May 27, 2013 16:46:32 GMT -8
...I've heard it said that the addictive power of nicotine is as strong... I beleived this for a long time. I smoked for over two decades, quitting for a year here and there, but always going back to it. Each quitting episode was a nightmare. Allen Carr (Easyway) set me straight. The physical withdrawal from nicotine is actually barely noticeable. The intense suffering from quitting nictoine comes from a mental conflict. I know that smokers and ex-smokers will find this hard to believe, as did I. It was quite an eye opener seeing it this way. Quitting the last time was not just easy; it was enjoyable. Yes, that's the mind game I've been talking about. |
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Post by enigma on May 27, 2013 16:52:07 GMT -8
I beleived this for a long time. I smoked for over two decades, quitting for a year here and there, but always going back to it. Each quitting episode was a nightmare. Allen Carr (Easyway) set me straight. The physical withdrawal from nicotine is actually barely noticeable. The intense suffering from quitting nictoine comes from a mental conflict. I know that smokers and ex-smokers will find this hard to believe, as did I. It was quite an eye opener seeing it this way. Quitting the last time was not just easy; it was enjoyable. Hey, same KR as over at the Tolle board? For me it was several months walkin' 'round in a fog and one of the worst symptoms I remember was a sort of coating of the mouth ... my tongue and my lips actually itched. This was 15 years before I discovered TPON but the way I did it was "I'm not gonna smoke this next ciggy ... don't know about next week or tomorrow or an hour or even 5 minutes from now, but right now, I ain't gonna' do it." My goal was to go a year. I'll never forget, I quit in the spring and it was like 7 or 8 months later -- the symptoms had died down quite a bit. The craving was still there of course but very low level. Then during some really cold weather I put on this pair of old gloves and after touching my face briefly ... **BAM!** ... my lips puckered up and my mouth fuzzed out and for several hours I was back at like day 2! I don't doubt your personal account and I can't use my example to counter E's argument about pure choice because one of the things I did at the time was to accept that the addiction would be with me for a lifetime -- I was vaguely aware of that idea because of common knowledge of AA methods. Was a struggle but it worked. I can actually smoke recreationally now ... pick it up for a night and drop it. On three occasions with extenuating circumstances I've gotten re-hooked for a few months at a time but it's never that hard to stop once the decisions made. Always chalked that up to the fact that the first time was quitting a 10+ year habit. That's the one thing I don't rez with in the AA plan. I see the value in admitting powerlessness, but it sets up a lifetime of victimhood to something seen as a disease. Still, it seems to work often enough. |
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burt
Member
Posts: 198
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Post by burt on May 30, 2013 4:19:57 GMT -8
Hey, same KR as over at the Tolle board? For me it was several months walkin' 'round in a fog and one of the worst symptoms I remember was a sort of coating of the mouth ... my tongue and my lips actually itched. This was 15 years before I discovered TPON but the way I did it was "I'm not gonna smoke this next ciggy ... don't know about next week or tomorrow or an hour or even 5 minutes from now, but right now, I ain't gonna' do it." My goal was to go a year. I'll never forget, I quit in the spring and it was like 7 or 8 months later -- the symptoms had died down quite a bit. The craving was still there of course but very low level. Then during some really cold weather I put on this pair of old gloves and after touching my face briefly ... **BAM!** ... my lips puckered up and my mouth fuzzed out and for several hours I was back at like day 2! I don't doubt your personal account and I can't use my example to counter E's argument about pure choice because one of the things I did at the time was to accept that the addiction would be with me for a lifetime -- I was vaguely aware of that idea because of common knowledge of AA methods. Was a struggle but it worked. I can actually smoke recreationally now ... pick it up for a night and drop it. On three occasions with extenuating circumstances I've gotten re-hooked for a few months at a time but it's never that hard to stop once the decisions made. Always chalked that up to the fact that the first time was quitting a 10+ year habit. That's the one thing I don't rez with in the AA plan. I see the value in admitting powerlessness, but it sets up a lifetime of victimhood to something seen as a disease. Still, it seems to work often enough. It's an example of the material world paying a dividend for the formation of an identity, of an attachment: "I am a smoker/drinker/junkie". In taking this on along with confronting the powerlessness the body/mind benefits from turning away from the destructive cycle of addiction. It's the spirit/matter duality in action ... pointing away from what seems obvious but is actually a lie is a tough sell, but ironically seems to get easier the more people get what they think they want. It's also a good example of how a self-reinforcing structure forms-up around a focal point of human suffering. No more junkies, no more anonammo, and the cardboard tables and chairs are folded one last time for once and for all but not for the good of the organization itself. In this there is an institutional incentive to hide the ball, so to speak. This seems to me the organizational equivalent of the personal aversion to freedom even as one cries out from behind the bars that they've created out of the cloth of their own imagination. |
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