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Post by Reefs on May 20, 2013 6:22:59 GMT -8
You have to allow yourself to be humbled. That humbling can take place in an instant or over a lifetime, it doesn't matter. Notice that he says "to be humbled" and not 'be humble'.  |
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Post by enigma on May 20, 2013 8:05:15 GMT -8
You have to allow yourself to be humbled. That humbling can take place in an instant or over a lifetime, it doesn't matter. Notice that he says "to be humbled" and not 'be humble'. Yup. True humility, like any 'virtue', is impersonal, which essentially means a loss. In the case of humility it would mean the loss of arrogance or hubris. In the specific example, it means losing the idea that one can be the cause of one's own enlightenment, or indeed that one can be personally enlightened. So humility is the loss of interest in either humility or arrogance, which is different than 'becoming a humble person'. The person who thinks he is humble has just taken on the label for their self image, and likely tries to behave according how he believes a humble person should act, which betrays an inner battle and an inauthenticity. True humility is in the absence of self, in the same way that selflessness is. |
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Post by Reefs on May 23, 2013 3:32:52 GMT -8
Yup. True humility, like any 'virtue', is impersonal, which essentially means a loss. In the case of humility it would mean the loss of arrogance or hubris. In the specific example, it means losing the idea that one can be the cause of one's own enlightenment, or indeed that one can be personally enlightened.
So humility is the loss of interest in either humility or arrogance, which is different than 'becoming a humble person'. The person who thinks he is humble has just taken on the label for their self image, and likely tries to behave according how he believes a humble person should act, which betrays an inner battle and an inauthenticity.
True humility is in the absence of self, in the same way that selflessness is. Correctomundo. Following an ideal/concept is a recipe for disaster. Firstly, because it kills spontaneity and openness. Secondly, it requires a lot of effort (self-monitoring). So even if one follows such noble ideals like love and kindness, as long as it doesn't flow naturally it's just a show, i.e. not authentic. And as you said, there's an inner battle which - usually on spiritual forums - comes to the surface relatively quickly when the idealist tries to convince others of how kind and loving he/she actually is and how others should shape up a bit more. |
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Post by enigma on May 23, 2013 15:32:54 GMT -8
Yup. True humility, like any 'virtue', is impersonal, which essentially means a loss. In the case of humility it would mean the loss of arrogance or hubris. In the specific example, it means losing the idea that one can be the cause of one's own enlightenment, or indeed that one can be personally enlightened.
So humility is the loss of interest in either humility or arrogance, which is different than 'becoming a humble person'. The person who thinks he is humble has just taken on the label for their self image, and likely tries to behave according how he believes a humble person should act, which betrays an inner battle and an inauthenticity.
True humility is in the absence of self, in the same way that selflessness is. Correctomundo. Following an ideal/concept is a recipe for disaster. Firstly, because it kills spontaneity and openness. Secondly, it requires a lot of effort (self-monitoring). So even if one follows such noble ideals like love and kindness, as long as it doesn't flow naturally it's just a show, i.e. not authentic. And as you said, there's an inner battle which - usually on spiritual forums - comes to the surface relatively quickly when the idealist tries to convince others of how kind and loving he/she actually is and how others should shape up a bit more. That's pretty much the size of it. The contrived expression usually ends up being the opposite of what is aimed for as one focuses on the desired quality and suppresses the undesired one. Outwardly humble peeps can suddenly become subtly arrogant, or kind/loving peeps can explode in a self righteous fury, in the name of love, of course. |
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burt
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Post by burt on May 23, 2013 22:47:13 GMT -8
Notice that he says "to be humbled" and not 'be humble'. Yup. True humility, like any 'virtue', is impersonal, which essentially means a loss. In the case of humility it would mean the loss of arrogance or hubris. In the specific example, it means losing the idea that one can be the cause of one's own enlightenment, or indeed that one can be personally enlightened. So humility is the loss of interest in either humility or arrogance, which is different than 'becoming a humble person'. The person who thinks he is humble has just taken on the label for their self image, and likely tries to behave according how he believes a humble person should act, which betrays an inner battle and an inauthenticity. True humility is in the absence of self, in the same way that selflessness is. Authenticity. "You can fool some of the people all of the time...". Always tells in the end. |
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Post by Reefs on Jun 1, 2013 19:21:52 GMT -8
If you have been in mediation groups, you have probably experienced a manufactured silence. It's the kind of silence that comes from the manipulation of mind. That's a false silence because it is manufactured, controlled. Real silence has nothing to do with any kind of control or manipulation of yourself or your experience. So forget about controlling the mind. So 'invoked' and 'practiced' silence would be a false silence. |
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burt
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Post by burt on Jun 2, 2013 14:29:54 GMT -8
If you have been in mediation groups, you have probably experienced a manufactured silence. It's the kind of silence that comes from the manipulation of mind. That's a false silence because it is manufactured, controlled. Real silence has nothing to do with any kind of control or manipulation of yourself or your experience. So forget about controlling the mind. So 'invoked' and 'practiced' silence would be a false silence.  |
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Post by silvery1 on Jun 2, 2013 14:47:53 GMT -8
If you have been in mediation groups, you have probably experienced a manufactured silence. It's the kind of silence that comes from the manipulation of mind. That's a false silence because it is manufactured, controlled. Real silence has nothing to do with any kind of control or manipulation of yourself or your experience. So forget about controlling the mind. So 'invoked' and 'practiced' silence would be a false silence. Aha. These are the kinds of discussions that happen oh here and there that inspired the use of this bit: ...and before I even heard of you and this, it was a scream to me. Now, when, how, etc. is the 'false silence' so bad and why? I mean, there's not a lot of average joes / jills who could even tell the diff. Why is it important if nothing really matters? Life just plays out how it will............Right? If being conscientious and all that is neither here nor there, why is anything this important? |
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burt
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Post by burt on Jun 2, 2013 20:05:39 GMT -8
So 'invoked' and 'practiced' silence would be a false silence. Aha. These are the kinds of discussions that happen oh here and there that inspired the use of this bit: ...and before I even heard of you and this, it was a scream to me. Now, when, how, etc. is the 'false silence' so bad and why? I mean, there's not a lot of average joes / jills who could even tell the diff. Why is it important if nothing really matters? Life just plays out how it will............Right? If being conscientious and all that is neither here nor there, why is anything this important? Let's say you and a friend are out for a stroll and you encounter some out-of-towners who stop you for directions. Your friend does the talking and describes a route that takes them in what you know is the opposite direction of where they want to go. What would you do? Where are you getting the idea that "nothing really matters"? |
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Post by silvery1 on Jun 2, 2013 20:44:35 GMT -8
Aha. These are the kinds of discussions that happen oh here and there that inspired the use of this bit: ...and before I even heard of you and this, it was a scream to me. Now, when, how, etc. is the 'false silence' so bad and why? I mean, there's not a lot of average joes / jills who could even tell the diff. Why is it important if nothing really matters? Life just plays out how it will............Right? If being conscientious and all that is neither here nor there, why is anything this important? I guess it's what seems to be the overlay (attitude) of you guys... I know I should've stuck to questioning the 'false silence'. - how 'bad' is a 'false silence' and what makes it nugatory, if that's what's being implied. Let's say you and a friend are out for a stroll and you encounter some out-of-towners who stop you for directions. Your friend does the talking and describes a route that takes them in what you know is the opposite direction of where they want to go. What would you do? Where are you getting the idea that "nothing really matters"? I guess it's what seems to be the overlay (attitude) of you guys... I know I should've stuck to questioning the 'false silence'. - how 'bad' is a 'false silence' and what makes it negatory, if that's what's being implied. |
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burt
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Post by burt on Jun 3, 2013 0:19:31 GMT -8
I guess it's what seems to be the overlay (attitude) of you guys... I know I should've stuck to questioning the 'false silence'. - how 'bad' is a 'false silence' and what makes it nugatory, if that's what's being implied. Let's say you and a friend are out for a stroll and you encounter some out-of-towners who stop you for directions. Your friend does the talking and describes a route that takes them in what you know is the opposite direction of where they want to go. What would you do? Where are you getting the idea that "nothing really matters"? I guess it's what seems to be the overlay (attitude) of you guys... I know I should've stuck to questioning the 'false silence'. - how 'bad' is a 'false silence' and what makes it negatory, if that's what's being implied. My guess is that your perception of that attitude is based in a perspective on the nature of identity. If you take yourself to be your history, your separate body, your thinking mind that constructs a narrative, and the whole package sometimes in opposition, sometimes in harmony with everything that that's not, then yeah, "none of that matters". It doesn't matter for the simple reason that that is not what you are -- none of any of that is what you are, and the question of what you are is at the root of the nature of the inquiry on these forums. As far as the aspect of "false silence" that's worth noticing, what raj said in the quote thread is a good start: it attracts it's opposite. So here you have people going to meditate, ostenchably with the intent to quiet their minds, and they just wind up eventually attracting and manifesting a bunch of mental noise. |
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Post by silvery1 on Jun 3, 2013 3:41:46 GMT -8
I guess it's what seems to be the overlay (attitude) of you guys... I know I should've stuck to questioning the 'false silence'. - how 'bad' is a 'false silence' and what makes it negatory, if that's what's being implied. My guess is that your perception of that attitude is based in a perspective on the nature of identity. If you take yourself to be your history, your separate body, your thinking mind that constructs a narrative, and the whole package sometimes in opposition, sometimes in harmony with everything that that's not, then yeah, "none of that matters". It doesn't matter for the simple reason that that is not what you are -- none of any of that is what you are, and the question of what you are is at the root of the nature of the inquiry on these forums. As far as the aspect of "false silence" that's worth noticing, what raj said in the quote thread is a good start: it attracts it's opposite. So here you have people going to meditate, ostenchably with the intent to quiet their minds, and they just wind up eventually attracting and manifesting a bunch of mental noise. So...are you guys saying that any kind of meditation other than 'effortless' meditation, so to speak, is 'for real' meditation and anything else is meh? I don't know if I'd go that route...I'm presently reading a book called Relaxing Into Your Being / Tao Meditation Vol 1, by Bruce Frantzis and evidently, he is no slouch. In this book he teaches complete Tao breathing for health/spirituality, and developing meditative awareness, and along that road, there are certain practices to that end. I know you may be referring to 'other than' this sort of thing, but just sayin'..... |
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Post by humphrey on Jun 3, 2013 4:20:19 GMT -8
I guess it's what seems to be the overlay (attitude) of you guys... I know I should've stuck to questioning the 'false silence'. - how 'bad' is a 'false silence' and what makes it nugatory, if that's what's being implied. Let's say you and a friend are out for a stroll and you encounter some out-of-towners who stop you for directions. Your friend does the talking and describes a route that takes them in what you know is the opposite direction of where they want to go. What would you do? Where are you getting the idea that "nothing really matters"? I guess it's what seems to be the overlay (attitude) of you guys... I know I should've stuck to questioning the 'false silence'. - how 'bad' is a 'false silence' and what makes it negatory, if that's what's being implied. Maybe instead of 'false silence' you could think of something called 'mindful eating.' Folks hear 'mindful eating' and take it to mean that one should notice their intention to reach for the fork, notice the movement of their arm and hand through space, notice the feel of the fork, the weight and the coolness of the fork, and the motion of the fork headed to the plate, and the sounds as it gently spears a cube of organic tofu, and the motion of the fork and tofu cube and arm and hand as it moves towards the opening mouth, and the first bite and release of saliva and complexity of taste, and then the second bite...and third...and swallowing and replacing fork.... Eating becomes an extremely slow activity. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with 'false silence.' It's just that it is a bit contrived. Just eat. |
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Post by silvery1 on Jun 3, 2013 7:21:27 GMT -8
I guess it's what seems to be the overlay (attitude) of you guys... I know I should've stuck to questioning the 'false silence'. - how 'bad' is a 'false silence' and what makes it negatory, if that's what's being implied. Maybe instead of 'false silence' you could think of something called 'mindful eating.' Folks hear 'mindful eating' and take it to mean that one should notice their intention to reach for the fork, notice the movement of their arm and hand through space, notice the feel of the fork, the weight and the coolness of the fork, and the motion of the fork headed to the plate, and the sounds as it gently spears a cube of organic tofu, and the motion of the fork and tofu cube and arm and hand as it moves towards the opening mouth, and the first bite and release of saliva and complexity of taste, and then the second bite...and third...and swallowing and replacing fork.... Eating becomes an extremely slow activity. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with 'false silence.' It's just that it is a bit contrived. Just eat. Ah, I see where you're coming from now. I like your description play-by-play of 'mindful eating'. Acshully it sounds better than either just eating (boring) and inhaling one's food - like a happy medium. |
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Post by humphrey on Jun 3, 2013 8:36:56 GMT -8
Maybe instead of 'false silence' you could think of something called 'mindful eating.' Folks hear 'mindful eating' and take it to mean that one should notice their intention to reach for the fork, notice the movement of their arm and hand through space, notice the feel of the fork, the weight and the coolness of the fork, and the motion of the fork headed to the plate, and the sounds as it gently spears a cube of organic tofu, and the motion of the fork and tofu cube and arm and hand as it moves towards the opening mouth, and the first bite and release of saliva and complexity of taste, and then the second bite...and third...and swallowing and replacing fork.... Eating becomes an extremely slow activity. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with 'false silence.' It's just that it is a bit contrived. Just eat. Ah, I see where you're coming from now. I like your description play-by-play of 'mindful eating'. Acshully it sounds better than either just eating (boring) and inhaling one's food - like a happy medium. First there was inhaling one's food Then there was mindful eating then just eating. The first is unconscious, and the details of the experience of eating are lost. The second is a practice. The third is just eating. But the third is complete with all the details of the second, and more. Some of the details are lost in the practice of the second because the practice is what is primary and not the eating. A 'false silence' is a practice in the same way. Actual silence is polluted with the noise of the practice of 'should be silent' etc. blah blah just riffin |
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