|
Post by theo on Feb 6, 2013 7:20:21 GMT -8
... Perhaps what appears as confidence is just because what is uttered comes from a place where there is no self-doubt because there is no self to doubt. There is no need to second guess because there is no ownership over what is uttered.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 6, 2013 10:50:21 GMT -8
Heh, I actually understand that. Wow. I see a lot of dodging and weaving at ST, including by someone named maxdprophet. Sometimes I wish there was fear about a precipice, teetering on the unknown. On the top side, all is imagined, including the one teetering, the precipice and the danger. On the other side, just nothing and THIS, of course. Dive into it, and the diver disappears. But mostly such drama just doesn't appear; only wistfully in imagination. I go about my day, grooving on what is or not. Doing stuff as it happens. I come here to these forums to do what?? It'd be nice to state something confidently without bluster. In some ways, I'm seeking confidence, yet I know confidence can only be genuine and is expressed freely from a place where there is no belief in separation. I'm not talking the Donald Trump sort of confidence. Perhaps what appears as confidence is just because what is uttered comes from a place where there is no self-doubt because there is no self to doubt. There is no need to second guess because there is no ownership over what is uttered. In an odd way that's true. If we turn it around and look at what causes lack of confidence we see that mind is imagining everything, including it's knowledge, fears and hesitations. It doesn't seem so to most because we've consciously accepted that what we think is true, but if mind imagines in the first place, then mind actually already knows it's imagined and is just pretending it knows. Trying to convince ourselves and others that we haven't imagined everything stimulates a lot of conversation involving assertion, defense and offense. This imagination process is self evident and doesn't require mind's proof games, which means there's no pretender, and since it's the pretending that results in doubt and uncertainty, there is no uncertainty. So it's not really that certainty is added because there really isn't anything to be certain about. It's more that the uncertainty is removed because we're no longer pretending. In the same way that Love and Peace is an absence, certainty is also an absence. All virtue is also an absence. Integrity, humility, selflessness, compassion, courage and freedom itself are all an absence.
|
|
|
Post by silence on Feb 8, 2013 15:03:14 GMT -8
Sometimes I wish there was fear about a precipice, teetering on the unknown. On the top side, all is imagined, including the one teetering, the precipice and the danger. On the other side, just nothing and THIS, of course. Dive into it, and the diver disappears. Yeah. People read accounts of others and watch videos and stuff and there becomes a real desire for fireworks to happen. Rather than noticing the space so to speak opening up, the attention is caught in a waiting game for something big to happen. The desire for something big and life changing to happen may even be so strong that thought starts producing nonsensical fear just so it can surrender to it. It'd be nice to state something confidently without bluster. In some ways, I'm seeking confidence, yet I know confidence can only be genuine and is expressed freely from a place where there is no belief in separation. I'm not talking the Donald Trump sort of confidence. Perhaps what appears as confidence is just because what is uttered comes from a place where there is no self-doubt because there is no self to doubt. There is no need to second guess because there is no ownership over what is uttered. Right. People are drawn to spiritual teachers and teachings because they have a sort of resounding authority. Somewhere along the line, people seem to lose their own authority and really this is what they seek. It's truly the authority of life itself and it can't be found anywhere in memory. The moment thought tries to copy this quality of vibrancy it evaporates. It's that unshakable depth and power of truth itself that wouldn't even flinch if all of the sages of time appeared and said you're wrong.
|
|
|
Post by spongey on Feb 8, 2013 20:32:04 GMT -8
Sometimes I wish there was fear about a precipice, teetering on the unknown. On the top side, all is imagined, including the one teetering, the precipice and the danger. On the other side, just nothing and THIS, of course. Dive into it, and the diver disappears. Yeah. People read accounts of others and watch videos and stuff and there becomes a real desire for fireworks to happen. Rather than noticing the space so to speak opening up, the attention is caught in a waiting game for something big to happen. The desire for something big and life changing to happen may even be so strong that thought starts producing nonsensical fear just so it can surrender to it. This is v true. You know that the 'realized' ones see things differently. Not necessarily looking for fireworks but definately some sort of shift. After all this time everything is exactly the same here. I still believe in volition (even though I know it's not the case), I still have a 'me' that I feel the need to defend. I still hate it when I get down and depressed. I still believe in time, I still believe I can improve things by thinking differently. Unless I'm really contemplating all this, at which time it seems so obvious, everything is as it was!
|
|
|
Post by beingist on Feb 9, 2013 7:43:38 GMT -8
Yeah. People read accounts of others and watch videos and stuff and there becomes a real desire for fireworks to happen. Rather than noticing the space so to speak opening up, the attention is caught in a waiting game for something big to happen. The desire for something big and life changing to happen may even be so strong that thought starts producing nonsensical fear just so it can surrender to it. This is v true. You know that the 'realized' ones see things differently. Not necessarily looking for fireworks but definately some sort of shift. After all this time everything is exactly the same here. I still believe in volition (even though I know it's not the case), I still have a 'me' that I feel the need to defend. I still hate it when I get down and depressed. I still believe in time, I still believe I can improve things by thinking differently. Unless I'm really contemplating all this, at which time it seems so obvious, everything is as it was! Not really sure how you can change anything by simply thinking differently. Realizing that you are not your thoughts isn't 'thinking differently.'
|
|
|
Post by silence on Feb 9, 2013 13:19:10 GMT -8
This is v true. You know that the 'realized' ones see things differently. Not necessarily looking for fireworks but definately some sort of shift. After all this time everything is exactly the same here. I still believe in volition (even though I know it's not the case), I still have a 'me' that I feel the need to defend. I still hate it when I get down and depressed. I still believe in time, I still believe I can improve things by thinking differently. Unless I'm really contemplating all this, at which time it seems so obvious, everything is as it was! I know. The matter is largely due to making old thought patterns wrong and replacing them with new thought patterns. For instance, having control of your life (volition) would have never been a problem until you convinced yourself that having no control would somehow be better. Same with believing in time. This IS trying to think differently to improve things. So the question is, is it working?
|
|
|
Post by spongey on Feb 9, 2013 20:28:07 GMT -8
This is v true. You know that the 'realized' ones see things differently. Not necessarily looking for fireworks but definately some sort of shift. After all this time everything is exactly the same here. I still believe in volition (even though I know it's not the case), I still have a 'me' that I feel the need to defend. I still hate it when I get down and depressed. I still believe in time, I still believe I can improve things by thinking differently. Unless I'm really contemplating all this, at which time it seems so obvious, everything is as it was! Not really sure how you can change anything by simply thinking differently. Realizing that you are not your thoughts isn't 'thinking differently.' Agree but I do know I'm not my thoughts. Nothing's changed? In other words I don't know my true self. Honestly I sat down and it was with such clarity that I realized not only am I not these thoughts, everything is assumed! Even that I'm in a body.
|
|
|
Post by spongey on Feb 9, 2013 20:34:08 GMT -8
This is v true. You know that the 'realized' ones see things differently. Not necessarily looking for fireworks but definately some sort of shift. After all this time everything is exactly the same here. I still believe in volition (even though I know it's not the case), I still have a 'me' that I feel the need to defend. I still hate it when I get down and depressed. I still believe in time, I still believe I can improve things by thinking differently. Unless I'm really contemplating all this, at which time it seems so obvious, everything is as it was! I know. The matter is largely due to making old thought patterns wrong and replacing them with new thought patterns. For instance, having control of your life (volition) would have never been a problem until you convinced yourself that having no control would somehow be better. Same with believing in time. This IS trying to think differently to improve things. So the question is, is it working? Mmm not sure I really get this. Arn't we supposed to drop beliefs? Drop the illusion of control etc etc? Isn't it all these beliefs/patterns that are preventing us seeing 'Truth?' (Or 'reality' or whatever term we want to use).
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Feb 10, 2013 0:52:09 GMT -8
Right. People are drawn to spiritual teachers and teachings because they have a sort of resounding authority. Somewhere along the line, people seem to lose their own authority and really this is what they seek. It's truly the authority of life itself and it can't be found anywhere in memory. The moment thought tries to copy this quality of vibrancy it evaporates. It's that unshakable depth and power of truth itself that wouldn't even flinch if all of the sages of time appeared and said you're wrong. Right. I guess that vibrancy is what the masters had in mind when they talked about silence being the best method of conveying their message.
|
|
|
Post by humphrey on Feb 10, 2013 20:03:04 GMT -8
Sometimes I wish there was fear about a precipice, teetering on the unknown. On the top side, all is imagined, including the one teetering, the precipice and the danger. On the other side, just nothing and THIS, of course. Dive into it, and the diver disappears. Yeah. People read accounts of others and watch videos and stuff and there becomes a real desire for fireworks to happen. Rather than noticing the space so to speak opening up, the attention is caught in a waiting game for something big to happen. The desire for something big and life changing to happen may even be so strong that thought starts producing nonsensical fear just so it can surrender to it. Well I haven't noticed the 'space so to speak opening up.' So it's only natural to read the messages in the bottles and wonder if I should be trying to notice something else. It'd be cool to relate my own story of frefalling into the abyss, but it looks like I might be on the McDonald's plan. There is a greater peace and ease these days; more tuned in to the lives of others around me. The practical, day to day stuff is in the foreground more. Sounds like PROGRESS!! Whatev. Maybe this is all just a passing interest. First it was psychotropics, then Alan Watts, then Buddhism, then Jed Mckenna, then nondualism. Or perhaps chalking it all up to just sheepish following of the latest fad is just an attempt to belittle something that it tickling some nerves deep down. You've mentioned the phenomena of forsaking authority previously. It's an interesting angle. I don't recall a time of ever having any authority, any actual authority in the way you are talking. Sure, there was a time when I spoke more authoritatively about things, in the same vein as 'I was so much older then, I'm much younger than that now.' Going way back, I could positively hear the stars. Maybe that's what you mean. Stay with what life serves up. The sky is shimmering. Why make it more complicated? that's fine.
|
|
|
Post by silence on Feb 10, 2013 23:19:25 GMT -8
I know. The matter is largely due to making old thought patterns wrong and replacing them with new thought patterns. For instance, having control of your life (volition) would have never been a problem until you convinced yourself that having no control would somehow be better. Same with believing in time. This IS trying to think differently to improve things. So the question is, is it working? Mmm not sure I really get this. Arn't we supposed to drop beliefs? Drop the illusion of control etc etc? Isn't it all these beliefs/patterns that are preventing us seeing 'Truth?' (Or 'reality' or whatever term we want to use). You've gone from believing you have control to believing you don't have control. Neither belief is satisfying and the latter is in direct opposition to your current experience. You've made non-duality into a religion and it's getting you nowhere.
|
|
|
Post by silence on Feb 10, 2013 23:29:52 GMT -8
Right. People are drawn to spiritual teachers and teachings because they have a sort of resounding authority. Somewhere along the line, people seem to lose their own authority and really this is what they seek. It's truly the authority of life itself and it can't be found anywhere in memory. The moment thought tries to copy this quality of vibrancy it evaporates. It's that unshakable depth and power of truth itself that wouldn't even flinch if all of the sages of time appeared and said you're wrong. Right. I guess that vibrancy is what the masters had in mind when they talked about silence being the best method of conveying their message. Yeah, look into the eyes of someone who isn't living in the past (thought) for even a moment and there's the message in totality.
|
|
|
Post by silence on Feb 10, 2013 23:57:35 GMT -8
Well I haven't noticed the 'space so to speak opening up.' So it's only natural to read the messages in the bottles and wonder if I should be trying to notice something else. It'd be cool to relate my own story of frefalling into the abyss, but it looks like I might be on the McDonald's plan. There is a greater peace and ease these days; more tuned in to the lives of others around me. The practical, day to day stuff is in the foreground more. Sounds like PROGRESS!! How is greater peace and ease different than space opening up? I'm not talking about literal space opening up in your noggin. Whatev. Maybe this is all just a passing interest. First it was psychotropics, then Alan Watts, then Buddhism, then Jed Mckenna, then nondualism. Or perhaps chalking it all up to just sheepish following of the latest fad is just an attempt to belittle something that it tickling some nerves deep down. Does nondualism seem like the most advanced? You've mentioned the phenomena of forsaking authority previously. It's an interesting angle. I don't recall a time of ever having any authority, any actual authority in the way you are talking. Sure, there was a time when I spoke more authoritatively about things, in the same vein as 'I was so much older then, I'm much younger than that now.' Going way back, I could positively hear the stars. Maybe that's what you mean. Stay with what life serves up. The sky is shimmering. Why make it more complicated? that's fine. I'm questioning what in the world draws people to spiritual teachers to begin with. They seriously don't have any sort of gift or magic beyond what the followers assign to them. In a very basic and obvious way, they are simply speaking from the entire depth of life itself before thought gets a hold of it and throws doubt in from every possible angle. You might even hear wild and non-sensical things coming from spiritual teachers but yet there's something there you can't quite put your finger on. It must become clear that clarity, the very authority of your being can not be possessed, remembered or made into an object. It is always available but equally elusive so long as the absence of conceptual doubt is the grounds for withdrawing interest from thought.
|
|
|
Post by spongey on Feb 12, 2013 6:12:50 GMT -8
Mmm not sure I really get this. Arn't we supposed to drop beliefs? Drop the illusion of control etc etc? Isn't it all these beliefs/patterns that are preventing us seeing 'Truth?' (Or 'reality' or whatever term we want to use). You've gone from believing you have control to believing you don't have control. Neither belief is satisfying and the latter is in direct opposition to your current experience. You've made non-duality into a religion and it's getting you nowhere. Not sure 'I've made it into anything'. There's no I, right? And if I have no control then 'mind' has made it into a religion, although unintentionally. This non-dual malarky is giving me a headache, going back to Abe for a bit. Not like there's anything I can do about it as it's gonna' happen anyway, and it 'is' 'what is' so ok no matter!
|
|
|
Post by silence on Feb 12, 2013 6:52:31 GMT -8
You've gone from believing you have control to believing you don't have control. Neither belief is satisfying and the latter is in direct opposition to your current experience. You've made non-duality into a religion and it's getting you nowhere. Not sure 'I've made it into anything'. There's no I, right? And if I have no control then 'mind' has made it into a religion, although unintentionally. This non-dual malarky is giving me a headache, going back to Abe for a bit. Not like there's anything I can do about it as it's gonna' happen anyway, and it 'is' 'what is' so ok no matter! It's the framing of your questions that reveals to me what's most likely going on. You're asking about what should happen or should be done. Asking for confirmation about ideas you hold, like "There's no I, right?". What I see is that you, or how you currently see the situation as "mind" has constructed a logical framework of ideas that for the most part make sense. Some of these ideas were likely just mind attaching to pointers and taking the finger for the moon and others were likely legitimate clarity that was turned over to mind and thrown into immediate doubt and incorporated into a timeline that constantly references how things are going. I don't know how much of that makes sense but it actually doesn't matter. There's clearly frustration, confusion and a sense of getting nowhere. Mind says that's devestating and needs to be remedied. I say it's great news and welcome it with a smile. It's precisely that sense of futility that mind is itching to dismiss and immediately look past that holds the realization of your freedom. Stay quiet and stay with the futility.
|
|