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Post by enigma on Jan 23, 2013 10:22:42 GMT -8
Good stuff. The reason the split mind occurs is that there is the belief that there is a person forming his own thoughts consciously, and that this person can therefore stop thinking, or at least should be able to. So it begins innocently enough with the idea to think good thoughts or stop thinking or whatever. Since it's not actually true that there is conscious control, it doesn't actually work. What it amounts to is a control pattern overlaid onto the existing pattern of thought, which does influence the thoughts, but not to the extent intended since the control pattern is just added. Still, the conclusion might be that the control worked a little, and so more control may be applied. This is an illusion and there was never any control involved. The thought to control thoughts did not originate from a supposed controller, but rather from the same place the rest of the thoughts came from; the past conditioning of beliefs, fears and desires. At this point, there is the belief in a controller, and some other thoughts that need to be controlled. What started out as one apparent person wanting to simply choose his thoughts has now become two apparent thought sources in conflict. Nobody starts out thinking that they are two, but the false idea of control leads to the erroneous conclusion that the failure to control must be the result of there being a mind, and then a person trying to control mind. This battle is not only fruitless, but also an additional source of struggle. Not enough to just know it though. The illusion has to be seen through. If it isn't, improving thoughts may be a good temporary option?! What I've tried to say is that it's not a good option. It doesn't work. The dualistic experience is not improved by changing thoughts. It does, however, improve by walking off the battle field, and this happens with clarity, not thought control. I'll have to get my sig back: the only way to win is to not play the game. You might want to read this article from the website on the positive psychology movement
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Post by jasonlynch on Jan 23, 2013 10:59:18 GMT -8
Getting high to avoid thinking and feeling a certain way, when on a certain level, you want to think and feel that way, is an indication of an already existing mind split. If your mind truly wants to write a program for better sleep, it will write it. And that may very well involve cutting back on the caffeine. Right now, that's just not what you want. In terms of the energy spinning thoughts like a top and the 'inclination to think': I would say harboring conflicts internally can manifest as chaos on the surface level of mind. The distortion from what isn't resolved is the lens through which consciousness creates through. The personal experience is the source of the distortion. Ironically, you can't find the 'actual person' at the source of that experience. When what is conscious of mind engages mind, there is a constriction of focus or attention into the thought stream. Consciousness creates and perceives thought simultaneoulsy, and the idea that what is created needs to, or could, stop itself, is silly. The thought processes which are undesirable, are undesirable only to an idea which represents the source of those thought processes. Ideas don't have anything to worry about. They're just ideas. Back to your question, staying unconscious takes a lot of energy and manifests in the experience in all sorts of ways. In the absence of exerting energy to remain unconscious, you are free from the idea that there was someone exerting something in the first place, which is why we say that life becomes effortless when we aren't sleeping at the wheel. Energy is still expended, but never wasted. The idea that thoughts can battle thoughts is a misconception, yet dynamically, something that seemingly happens. Being fully conscious is the absence of that seeming happening. I think I get this. The split-mind kabuki theater of thoughts battling thoughts is the source of suffering. There is one thought that rules them all, which is the thought that 'other' thoughts should be different in some way. LOL. Yea thinking thoughts that already happened should be different is not sane. (shuffles through row to find seat in kabuki theater) ;D
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Post by enigma on Jan 23, 2013 11:15:35 GMT -8
Getting high to avoid thinking and feeling a certain way, when on a certain level, you want to think and feel that way, is an indication of an already existing mind split. If your mind truly wants to write a program for better sleep, it will write it. And that may very well involve cutting back on the caffeine. Right now, that's just not what you want. In terms of the energy spinning thoughts like a top and the 'inclination to think': I would say harboring conflicts internally can manifest as chaos on the surface level of mind. The distortion from what isn't resolved is the lens through which consciousness creates through. The personal experience is the source of the distortion. Ironically, you can't find the 'actual person' at the source of that experience. When what is conscious of mind engages mind, there is a constriction of focus or attention into the thought stream. Consciousness creates and perceives thought simultaneoulsy, and the idea that what is created needs to, or could, stop itself, is silly. The thought processes which are undesirable, are undesirable only to an idea which represents the source of those thought processes. Ideas don't have anything to worry about. They're just ideas. Back to your question, staying unconscious takes a lot of energy and manifests in the experience in all sorts of ways. In the absence of exerting energy to remain unconscious, you are free from the idea that there was someone exerting something in the first place, which is why we say that life becomes effortless when we aren't sleeping at the wheel. Energy is still expended, but never wasted. The idea that thoughts can battle thoughts is a misconception, yet dynamically, something that seemingly happens. Being fully conscious is the absence of that seeming happening. I think I get this. The split-mind kabuki theater of thoughts battling thoughts is the source of suffering. There is one thought that rules them all, which is the thought that 'other' thoughts should be different in some way. Yes, the idea that something is not as it should be could be said to be the foundation of suffering, so it's important to see why that thought occurs and why it doesn't work as advertised. Only when the futility of it is seen does the thought stop happening.
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Post by enigma on Jan 23, 2013 11:19:47 GMT -8
The 'jacked up' issue is interesting, maybe. What makes it seem jacked up is really the rapid pace of the thoughts themselves. In a hyper state, (when not trying to sleep) these thoughts usually lead to all sorts of physical activity too. It's possible to be 'jacked up' and have no thoughts at all. This is a state of heightened alertness, or we could say attentiveness, like a cat watching a mouse hole. We can see that the cat is not physically hyper, and we can at least imagine that it is intensely alert and focused on the the hole. Not thinking about how good the mouse will taste, or how long it might have to wait, or wondering if the kitty litter has been changed yet. There is just a single pointed, empty, alert attentiveness, and for a cat this makes it possible to react viscerally at lightning speed. For a human, it may be possible to notice that which is noticing. This empty, alert attention is not the least bit common for humans. When there is a space formed for attention, the strong tendency is to fill it with thoughts, and so I don't recommend 'jacking it up', but I also don't recommend putting mind into a trance state as often happens with meditation. In any case, high alertness does not equal spinning thoughts. The high alertness reminds me of mamza suggesting a good form of ATA is to lie in the middle of a road listening (for cars). Yeah, I can see that. You wouldn't want attention to wander too much.
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Post by enigma on Jan 23, 2013 11:28:55 GMT -8
Good stuff. The reason the split mind occurs is that there is the belief that there is a person forming his own thoughts consciously, and that this person can therefore stop thinking, or at least should be able to. So it begins innocently enough with the idea to think good thoughts or stop thinking or whatever. Since it's not actually true that there is conscious control, it doesn't actually work. What it amounts to is a control pattern overlaid onto the existing pattern of thought, which does influence the thoughts, but not to the extent intended since the control pattern is just added. Still, the conclusion might be that the control worked a little, and so more control may be applied. This is an illusion and there was never any control involved. The thought to control thoughts did not originate from a supposed controller, but rather from the same place the rest of the thoughts came from; the past conditioning of beliefs, fears and desires. At this point, there is the belief in a controller, and some other thoughts that need to be controlled. What started out as one apparent person wanting to simply choose his thoughts has now become two apparent thought sources in conflict. Nobody starts out thinking that they are two, but the false idea of control leads to the erroneous conclusion that the failure to control must be the result of there being a mind, and then a person trying to control mind. This battle is not only fruitless, but also an additional source of struggle. I think I get this too. So the tricky trick is what the hell do I do with this? Answer: irrelevant. LOOOOOK and see, is there actually anyone running the show? Answer: no and yet, the battle continues. Just walk off the battlefield. Be still. Being still is temporary, walking off the battlefield an illusion. It all makes sense... yet. The key is clarity. As you imply, nothing needs to be done with it, which would just be more attempt at controlling. Keep looking and seeing, and the clarity that results from this will alter the conditioning (beliefs) from which the thoughts originate. The more clearly you see the futility of trying to fill your canteen from a mirage, the less inclined you will be to even try.
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Post by silence on Jan 23, 2013 13:03:17 GMT -8
Getting high to avoid thinking and feeling a certain way, when on a certain level, you want to think and feel that way, is an indication of an already existing mind split. If your mind truly wants to write a program for better sleep, it will write it. And that may very well involve cutting back on the caffeine. Right now, that's just not what you want. In terms of the energy spinning thoughts like a top and the 'inclination to think': I would say harboring conflicts internally can manifest as chaos on the surface level of mind. The distortion from what isn't resolved is the lens through which consciousness creates through. The personal experience is the source of the distortion. Ironically, you can't find the 'actual person' at the source of that experience. When what is conscious of mind engages mind, there is a constriction of focus or attention into the thought stream. Consciousness creates and perceives thought simultaneoulsy, and the idea that what is created needs to, or could, stop itself, is silly. The thought processes which are undesirable, are undesirable only to an idea which represents the source of those thought processes. Ideas don't have anything to worry about. They're just ideas. Back to your question, staying unconscious takes a lot of energy and manifests in the experience in all sorts of ways. In the absence of exerting energy to remain unconscious, you are free from the idea that there was someone exerting something in the first place, which is why we say that life becomes effortless when we aren't sleeping at the wheel. Energy is still expended, but never wasted. The idea that thoughts can battle thoughts is a misconception, yet dynamically, something that seemingly happens. Being fully conscious is the absence of that seeming happening. I think I get this. The split-mind kabuki theater of thoughts battling thoughts is the source of suffering. There is one thought that rules them all, which is the thought that 'other' thoughts should be different in some way. Essentially. This is one of my favorite quotes even though I tend to avoid quoting anything whenever possible. "Truth does not fight against illusions, nor do illusions fight against the truth. Illusions battle only with themselves. Being fragmented, they fragment. But truth is indivisible, and far beyond their little reach. You will remember what you know when you have learned you cannot be in conflict. One illusion about yourself can battle with another, yet the war of two illusions is a state where nothing happens. There is no victor and there is no victory. And truth stands radiant, apart from conflict, untouched and quiet in the peace of God."
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Post by spongey on Jan 23, 2013 14:37:44 GMT -8
Not enough to just know it though. The illusion has to be seen through. If it isn't, improving thoughts may be a good temporary option?! What I've tried to say is that it's not a good option. It doesn't work. The dualistic experience is not improved by changing thoughts. It does, however, improve by walking off the battle field, and this happens with clarity, not thought control. I'll have to get my sig back: the only way to win is to not play the game. You might want to read this article from the website on the positive psychology movement I will. I get what you're saying E, it's all makes perfect sense of course, what I'm trying to say is, how much more looking can one do? The clarity is not there so in the meantime improving thought, positive thinking, affirmations or whatever is an option and imho a good one for some. One can be looking, attending and in the meantime trying to improve the illusion. Otherwise there can be a lot more suffering, leading to depression and maybe meds. I hear the search takes 'years' for so many folk so life as a person has to go on in the meantime. Surely those 'awake' around here get this? That's all. my new sig: (Spongey- daily seeking for what's already here for one and a half years).
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Post by silence on Jan 23, 2013 16:16:52 GMT -8
What I've tried to say is that it's not a good option. It doesn't work. The dualistic experience is not improved by changing thoughts. It does, however, improve by walking off the battle field, and this happens with clarity, not thought control. I'll have to get my sig back: the only way to win is to not play the game. You might want to read this article from the website on the positive psychology movement I will. I get what you're saying E, it's all makes perfect sense of course, what I'm trying to say is, how much more looking can one do? The clarity is not there so in the meantime improving thought, positive thinking, affirmations or whatever is an option and imho a good one for some. One can be looking, attending and in the meantime trying to improve the illusion. Otherwise there can be a lot more suffering, leading to depression and maybe meds. I hear the search takes 'years' for so many folk so life as a person has to go on in the meantime. Surely those 'awake' around here get this? That's all. my new sig: (Spongey- daily seeking for what's already here for one and a half years). Seems to me like you're quickly approaching the futility of the practices you've been doing in regards to creating a continuous sense of well being and happiness. Rather than embrace that futility, you see a gaping black hole that will lead to depression and a life of fruitless searching. It's precisely that sense of utter failure that you don't want to touch that will set you free.
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Post by jasonlynch on Jan 23, 2013 17:00:15 GMT -8
What I've tried to say is that it's not a good option. It doesn't work. The dualistic experience is not improved by changing thoughts. It does, however, improve by walking off the battle field, and this happens with clarity, not thought control. I'll have to get my sig back: the only way to win is to not play the game. You might want to read this article from the website on the positive psychology movement I will. I get what you're saying E, it's all makes perfect sense of course, what I'm trying to say is, how much more looking can one do? Waddup spongemeister. I wouldn't say that a person can do the looking, but rather, that the person itself is looked at. As what is conscious of the movement of thought, becomes conscious that its not part of that movement, the 'looking' unravels the illusion that what you are is tied up in the mind, or put another way, the mind itself that can look or attend to things. More often than not, the activities of looking and attending (i call them activities only to address the illusion that mind thinks it can do them) are performed or practiced under the assumption they will alter the experience in some way, some way which will make the experience better than its been. Noticing illusion to be an illusion has nothing to do with improving the illusion, implicitly. Simultaneously, a fully conscious mind will function more efficiently than one riddled in contradictory thought processes. And that phenomena does lead to a better experience, but not because of what's been added to the illusion, but rather, what's been taken away from it. I try not to talk about attending or looking as something to do, but rather, something one allows to be done. The idea that a person is looking or attending to something, is just an idea, and is itself, looked at. Unraveling untrue ideas can lead to the clear seeing that you aren't an idea that can do something. That idea is a terrible burden. With all that said, I have a toaster oven and some baked chacken to attend to!
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Post by enigma on Jan 23, 2013 19:22:24 GMT -8
What I've tried to say is that it's not a good option. It doesn't work. The dualistic experience is not improved by changing thoughts. It does, however, improve by walking off the battle field, and this happens with clarity, not thought control. I'll have to get my sig back: the only way to win is to not play the game. You might want to read this article from the website on the positive psychology movement I will. I get what you're saying E, it's all makes perfect sense of course, what I'm trying to say is, how much more looking can one do? The clarity is not there so in the meantime improving thought, positive thinking, affirmations or whatever is an option and imho a good one for some. One can be looking, attending and in the meantime trying to improve the illusion. Otherwise there can be a lot more suffering, leading to depression and maybe meds. I hear the search takes 'years' for so many folk so life as a person has to go on in the meantime. Surely those 'awake' around here get this? That's all. my new sig: (Spongey- daily seeking for what's already here for one and a half years). You're still not hearing what I've been saying Spongey. I'm saying the illusion does not improve with positive thinking. I'm not saying it's incomplete or illusory happiness or you should be looking for Peace or whatever. It's not the next best thing. I'm saying it doesn't work.
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Post by spongey on Jan 23, 2013 22:03:09 GMT -8
I will. I get what you're saying E, it's all makes perfect sense of course, what I'm trying to say is, how much more looking can one do? The clarity is not there so in the meantime improving thought, positive thinking, affirmations or whatever is an option and imho a good one for some. One can be looking, attending and in the meantime trying to improve the illusion. Otherwise there can be a lot more suffering, leading to depression and maybe meds. I hear the search takes 'years' for so many folk so life as a person has to go on in the meantime. Surely those 'awake' around here get this? That's all. my new sig: (Spongey- daily seeking for what's already here for one and a half years). You're still not hearing what I've been saying Spongey. I'm saying the illusion does not improve with positive thinking. I'm not saying it's incomplete or illusory happiness or you should be looking for Peace or whatever. It's not the next best thing. I'm saying it doesn't work. Ok it appears to work briefly. I stick to that being better than the alternative, as negative thoughts attract negative thoughts.
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Post by spongey on Jan 23, 2013 22:07:01 GMT -8
I will. I get what you're saying E, it's all makes perfect sense of course, what I'm trying to say is, how much more looking can one do? The clarity is not there so in the meantime improving thought, positive thinking, affirmations or whatever is an option and imho a good one for some. One can be looking, attending and in the meantime trying to improve the illusion. Otherwise there can be a lot more suffering, leading to depression and maybe meds. I hear the search takes 'years' for so many folk so life as a person has to go on in the meantime. Surely those 'awake' around here get this? That's all. my new sig: (Spongey- daily seeking for what's already here for one and a half years). Seems to me like you're quickly approaching the futility of the practices you've been doing in regards to creating a continuous sense of well being and happiness. Rather than embrace that futility, you see a gaping black hole that will lead to depression and a life of fruitless searching. It's precisely that sense of utter failure that you don't want to touch that will set you free. I look forward to it ;-) Seriously though it's seriously out of my control. What I'm trying to say is that I was depressed, then LoA, positive thinking helped. Then starting to look at conditioning and beliefs helps tonnes. Now I'm not depressed. Instead (as you can sense) I'm frustrated by not being able to have that real 'clarity'.
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Post by spongey on Jan 23, 2013 22:08:24 GMT -8
I will. I get what you're saying E, it's all makes perfect sense of course, what I'm trying to say is, how much more looking can one do? Waddup spongemeister. I wouldn't say that a person can do the looking, but rather, that the person itself is looked at. As what is conscious of the movement of thought, becomes conscious that its not part of that movement, the 'looking' unravels the illusion that what you are is tied up in the mind, or put another way, the mind itself that can look or attend to things. More often than not, the activities of looking and attending (i call them activities only to address the illusion that mind thinks it can do them) are performed or practiced under the assumption they will alter the experience in some way, some way which will make the experience better than its been. Noticing illusion to be an illusion has nothing to do with improving the illusion, implicitly. Simultaneously, a fully conscious mind will function more efficiently than one riddled in contradictory thought processes. And that phenomena does lead to a better experience, but not because of what's been added to the illusion, but rather, what's been taken away from it. I try not to talk about attending or looking as something to do, but rather, something one allows to be done. The idea that a person is looking or attending to something, is just an idea, and is itself, looked at. Unraveling untrue ideas can lead to the clear seeing that you aren't an idea that can do something. That idea is a terrible burden. With all that said, I have a toaster oven and some baked chacken to attend to! Will read this when get more time later..(just so you know I'm not ignoring you!)
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Post by silence on Jan 23, 2013 22:50:15 GMT -8
Seems to me like you're quickly approaching the futility of the practices you've been doing in regards to creating a continuous sense of well being and happiness. Rather than embrace that futility, you see a gaping black hole that will lead to depression and a life of fruitless searching. It's precisely that sense of utter failure that you don't want to touch that will set you free. I look forward to it ;-) Seriously though it's seriously out of my control. What I'm trying to say is that I was depressed, then LoA, positive thinking helped. Then starting to look at conditioning and beliefs helps tonnes. Now I'm not depressed. Instead (as you can sense) I'm frustrated by not being able to have that real 'clarity'. You want real 'clarity' or you want to feel good all the time?
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Post by spongey on Jan 23, 2013 23:45:38 GMT -8
I look forward to it ;-) Seriously though it's seriously out of my control. What I'm trying to say is that I was depressed, then LoA, positive thinking helped. Then starting to look at conditioning and beliefs helps tonnes. Now I'm not depressed. Instead (as you can sense) I'm frustrated by not being able to have that real 'clarity'. You want real 'clarity' or you want to feel good all the time? You can't feel good all the time. You wouldn't know what feeling good was without the opposite. I want clarity. I also want to stop believing the stories and crazy thoughts. Mainly, I want the Truth. I'm under no illusions about it being a feel good, happy place. I've read enough and been communicating with you guys enough to at least know that. I am at the 'can't be bothered' with it all anymore stage..and yet here I am, over and over again. You guys must be getting very impatient with me!
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