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Post by spongey on Mar 2, 2013 21:09:49 GMT -8
Honestly, I've done a lot of enquiry and I see that I've been trying to answer the questions (unintentionally) with my mind. Yes, that's very important to recognize. I'd say you're finally starting to be honest with yourself. Any spiritual practice can equally be used to hide out in the mind as it can be used to shed light on it. The usefulness of inquiry is to direct attention in the same way you would move a flashlight to shed light on a dark corner and then simply look and be silent. In doing so you release mind from the role of protector and with that, slowly but surely release it from it's diseased state of neurosis. In other words, what you really are doesn't require any healing or transformation. All that's happening is slowly conquering your fears of allowing mind to function as it's going to function while simultaneously removing your sense of self from every falsity you've ever believed. It still amazes me how subtle mind is, it just keeps coming back with 'this can't be it' or more of the same other drivel. When I'm able to I'm observing and that's all. The difficulty previously was that I kept being taken on a 'magical mystical tour'. Now, however, it doesn't seem to matter so much when that happens. There's a kind of deeper knowing. It's probably still intellectual but it seems enough right now. Am still interested in reading more on the subject but not necessarily because I'm going to gain/learn anything else, it's just an interest. Also, what I'm hearing seems to be making more sense and not so confusing.
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burt
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Post by burt on Mar 3, 2013 16:23:57 GMT -8
Ha ha ha ha...I'm laughing because I just went on the other forum! It's a funny read over there :-) sometimes it seems to me as though the circle where sanity is spoken just gets tighter, and smaller and narrower and ...
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Post by enigma on Mar 3, 2013 16:29:51 GMT -8
Ha ha ha ha...I'm laughing because I just went on the other forum! It's a funny read over there :-) sometimes it seems to me as though the circle where sanity is spoken just gets tighter, and smaller and narrower and ... Sanity is a rare commodity.
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burt
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Post by burt on Mar 3, 2013 17:33:24 GMT -8
sometimes it seems to me as though the circle where sanity is spoken just gets tighter, and smaller and narrower and ... Sanity is a rare commodity. I could never understand how cults recruited ... even though I was always more than arms-length about quite a bit of the consensus trance (not the bedrock stuff, but the social-structure-derivative elements) ... I could never figure out how the cults could convince people of such a radically different story. O.k. ... now I get that.
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Post by enigma on Mar 3, 2013 18:25:57 GMT -8
Sanity is a rare commodity. I could never understand how cults recruited ... even though I was always more than arms-length about quite a bit of the consensus trance (not the bedrock stuff, but the social-structure-derivative elements) ... I could never figure out how the cults could convince people of such a radically different story. O.k. ... now I get that. Me too. I've learned a lot about the mind's tricks, and I have to say it's astonishing.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 4, 2013 0:36:31 GMT -8
sometimes it seems to me as though the circle where sanity is spoken just gets tighter, and smaller and narrower and ... Sanity is a rare commodity. Are you talking about 'Tolle-Sanity' (TS) or EveryDayLifeTranceSanity (EDLTS)?
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Post by enigma on Mar 4, 2013 8:52:15 GMT -8
sometimes it seems to me as though the circle where sanity is spoken just gets tighter, and smaller and narrower and ... Sanity is a rare commodity. Are you talking about 'Tolle-Sanity' (TS) or EveryDayLifeTranceSanity (EDLTS)? I figured they're the same. At first, there was the sensation of being surrounded by zombies; folks moving around in a somnambulistic state, just conscious enough to mechanically respond to impulses they seemed to know nothing about. More recently, I see whole fantasy worlds being created and lived in this half awake state such that even the senses play a relatively minor role in this dream-like world, which is why there's so much argument about what the senses are actually revealing. While there IS a consensus reality, there really is no consensus about what that is, which is how folks can argue about the most obvious things. Humans don't live in a common world, they each live in their own thought/feeling world, and open their eyelids just enough to keep from bumping into each other most of the time.
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burt
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Post by burt on Mar 4, 2013 11:03:51 GMT -8
I could never understand how cults recruited ... even though I was always more than arms-length about quite a bit of the consensus trance (not the bedrock stuff, but the social-structure-derivative elements) ... I could never figure out how the cults could convince people of such a radically different story. O.k. ... now I get that. Me too. I've learned a lot about the mind's tricks, and I have to say it's astonishing. (ha ha! ... wrote this before I saw Hump's last ... I blame B!)Guilt is one of the most fascinating of those tricks ... the idea that anyone could ever do or say anything to put themselves outside of the reach of love ... the apparent problem seems to me to manifest as the misconception of the idea of love that comes with smashing the non-dual into the 10,000 things.
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burt
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Post by burt on Mar 4, 2013 11:08:26 GMT -8
just enough to keep from bumping into each other most of the time. If you've ever tried to move in a hurry in a place like Mid-town Manhattan during the day you can see the failure of even this -- and "it gets worse". Even if you move very deliberately, stop-and-start and make sure not to make contact with anyone or to upset another's space ... try to go far enough fast enough ... and it's almost a certainty that you're gonna get a deliberate, resentful elbow from someone. ps: moving slow ultimately doesn't help either, especially in tourist or residential areas. Herds of biznessfolk zombies are usually pretty cool about dispersing and making way and creating gaps when the street fills up ... but families? ;D
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Post by enigma on Mar 4, 2013 11:36:55 GMT -8
Me too. I've learned a lot about the mind's tricks, and I have to say it's astonishing. (ha ha! ... wrote this before I saw Hump's last ... I blame B!)Guilt is one of the most fascinating of those tricks ... the idea that anyone could ever do or say anything to put themselves outside of the reach of love ... the apparent problem seems to me to manifest as the misconception of the idea of love that comes with smashing the non-dual into the 10,000 things. I guess so. Guilt implies that what Love really is, is not known at all, and so guilt plays it's dualistic role in the conceptual love/hate game. This is where the idea of right action, as opposed to wrong action, fails utterly.
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Post by enigma on Mar 4, 2013 11:46:31 GMT -8
just enough to keep from bumping into each other most of the time. If you've ever tried to move in a hurry in a place like Mid-town Manhattan during the day you can see the failure of even this -- and "it gets worse". Even if you move very deliberately, stop-and-start and make sure not to make contact with anyone or to upset another's space ... try to go far enough fast enough ... and it's almost a certainty that you're gonna get a deliberate, resentful elbow from someone. ps: moving slow ultimately doesn't help either, especially in tourist or residential areas. Herds of biznessfolk zombies are usually pretty cool about dispersing and making way and creating gaps when the street fills up ... but families? ;D Marie grew up on NY until she moved here with me in rural Portland with the cows and sheep. Needless to say, it took a bit of getting used to. She kept asking me where all the people are. Crowded places tend to make peeps even more unconscious in a more purposeful way as a defense against sensory/feeling overload and the crashing of personal boundaries. Folks love stimulation but they need personal space for their sanity.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 5, 2013 4:19:34 GMT -8
Guilt is one of the most fascinating of those tricks ... the idea that anyone could ever do or say anything to put themselves outside of the reach of love ... the apparent problem seems to me to manifest as the misconception of the idea of love that comes with smashing the non-dual into the 10,000 things. That's what happens when one tries to live a concept.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 5, 2013 4:26:09 GMT -8
I guess so. Guilt implies that what Love really is, is not known at all, and so guilt plays it's dualistic role in the conceptual love/hate game. This is where the idea of right action, as opposed to wrong action, fails utterly. Yeah. But guilt is just the beginning. When it's clear that it's not working out there's a need for covering that up. And then it gets interesting and mucho roller-coasteresque.
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Post by silence on Mar 5, 2013 12:52:00 GMT -8
Yes, that's very important to recognize. I'd say you're finally starting to be honest with yourself. Any spiritual practice can equally be used to hide out in the mind as it can be used to shed light on it. The usefulness of inquiry is to direct attention in the same way you would move a flashlight to shed light on a dark corner and then simply look and be silent. In doing so you release mind from the role of protector and with that, slowly but surely release it from it's diseased state of neurosis. In other words, what you really are doesn't require any healing or transformation. All that's happening is slowly conquering your fears of allowing mind to function as it's going to function while simultaneously removing your sense of self from every falsity you've ever believed. It still amazes me how subtle mind is, it just keeps coming back with 'this can't be it' or more of the same other drivel. When I'm able to I'm observing and that's all. The difficulty previously was that I kept being taken on a 'magical mystical tour'. Now, however, it doesn't seem to matter so much when that happens. There's a kind of deeper knowing. It's probably still intellectual but it seems enough right now. Am still interested in reading more on the subject but not necessarily because I'm going to gain/learn anything else, it's just an interest. Also, what I'm hearing seems to be making more sense and not so confusing. Yes, I've heard you say before that it's like you already know all of this in some strange way. That's sort of the dawning of noticing that you're not stumbling into some new territory but rather slowly recognizing what was always there. One focus leaves you waiting for future events while the other turns that focus around to see what is here right now.
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Post by enigma on Mar 5, 2013 13:00:58 GMT -8
I guess so. Guilt implies that what Love really is, is not known at all, and so guilt plays it's dualistic role in the conceptual love/hate game. This is where the idea of right action, as opposed to wrong action, fails utterly. Yeah. But guilt is just the beginning. When it's clear that it's not working out there's a need for covering that up. And then it gets interesting and mucho roller-coasteresque. It makes for lots of layers of self delusion, which is why it sometimes seems like peeling an onion.
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