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Post by enigma on May 20, 2013 22:33:36 GMT -8
If there is no desire to smoke, how can it pull him in? Ok, I think I misunderstood what you explained in the article I guess. Any way i need to understand how it is. For an example, he choose to leave the habit of smoking, but this choosing should be stifling or denial rather than genuinely choosing to give up. Isn't it? how are you saying there is no desire to smoke? will he reach such state after he decide?If so, it will be genuinely choosing,isn't it? I'm not clear what you're asking, but clearly there is one mind. A choice is made to stop because there is the desire to stop. What can interfere with this desire? How does it get complicated for you?
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Post by Gopal on May 21, 2013 0:51:46 GMT -8
My friend decided to refrain from smoking a few months back, after ten days he can't control himself without smoking, smoking became a heaven for him at that time.So he started to smoke again. This is what I've meant. How this would be achieved easily with a single decision.There is a strong pull isn't it? Otherwise as soon as a drug addict decided to give up, that should have been achieved,but it's too difficult,isn't it?
RAJ
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Post by enigma on May 21, 2013 17:37:05 GMT -8
My friend decided to refrain from smoking a few months back, after ten days he can't control himself without smoking, smoking became a heaven for him at that time.So he started to smoke again. This is what I've meant. How this would be achieved easily with a single decision.There is a strong pull isn't it? Otherwise as soon as a drug addict decided to give up, that should have been achieved,but it's too difficult,isn't it? RAJ No, it's not difficult. Your friend did not decide to quite smoking. He decided to split his mind and go to war with himself. How can we say if he won or lost? If you ask your friend, he'll tell you there is a part of him that wanted to quit and a part that did not. How can there be two parts? How can there be two decision makers? How can part of him decide to quit and part of him decide to continue? How many of him are there? This is a mind game. Doesn't it just mean that he had motivation to quit and motivation to continue and he remained conflicted about it and hadn't really made a decision at all? The decision is simple. The fact is he never made it.
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Post by Gopal on May 21, 2013 20:46:34 GMT -8
"there is a part of him that wanted to quit and a part that did not"
Yes you are absolutely right, But the part that did not is not because he hasn't decided, He has decided to quit, But still something from inner level push him to smoke? This conflict what you say split in his mind not an intentional right? That happens, because inner desire push him to do so.Amn't I correct? what I mean to say is, split mind is not created by him , but it is automatically getting created due to pull.Isn't it?
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Post by enigma on May 21, 2013 21:54:52 GMT -8
"there is a part of him that wanted to quit and a part that did not" Yes you are absolutely right, But the part that did not is not because he hasn't decided, He has decided to quit, But still something from inner level push him to smoke? This conflict what you say split in his mind not an intentional right? That happens, because inner desire push him to do so.Amn't I correct? what I mean to say is, split mind is not created by him , but it is automatically getting created due to pull.Isn't it? Simplify it and see what is happening. There is no pull. It is mind caught in a conflict of it's own making. You want a piece of cake and yet you do not. How can it be? You want it because it tastes good. You don't want it because it will make you gain weight. You have split your mind thus. Nothing else has interfered. There is nothing but mind at war with mind. I raised this issue because it is fundamental to human conflict and is of our own making. Whether it is a piece of cake or a shot of heroine makes no difference. You face a choice and a pure choice must be made. When you encounter a branch on the path, you much choose one and release the other. You must make a pure choice and it is clear you cannot travel both paths. Why does it seem different with other choices? This is how every choice is; one choice is made and the other is forever abandoned, as it must be. It cannot be otherwise and yet we twist and distort until it appears that there is an irresistible force, an addiction, a pull towards that which has not been chosen. The choice was never truly made. That is all. Do you see? We deny the inevitability of a simple choice. It is a game the mind plays and the games must come to an end. We must learn to let go of that which is not chosen. A simple thing. An obvious thing.
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Post by Gopal on May 22, 2013 1:14:51 GMT -8
So, are you coming to say there is nothing like addiction? Even a drug addict person can choose one and abandon another one without any trouble?
RAJ
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Post by enigma on May 22, 2013 7:32:45 GMT -8
So, are you coming to say there is nothing like addiction? Even a drug addict person can choose one and abandon another one without any trouble? RAJ I'm not saying it's easy to make that pure choice. I'm saying addiction is the failure to make it. At the root of a craving is the possibility of satisfying that option. When one jumps out of an airplane, there cannot be the craving to be back on the airplane because it is not possible. The choice to jump is a pure choice if it is made at all, because it is quite unrevokable. For that reason it can be difficult, but there is no conflict, no looking back longingly, only looking forward. The withdrawal of addiction is interesting. Mind and body are not separate, and the symptoms of withdrawal are proportional to the craving. Heroine is not more physically addictive than marijuana, it produces a more powerful effect, and mind expresses this psychological craving in physical terms, and so we say the body needs the substance. It is the mind that is foolish and not the body. How could the body crave a substance that interferes with it's proper functioning? The suffering of withdrawal is the result of the failure to make a pure choice. The point is that habits are a split mind game. Continue the habit or end it, but choose one and release the other, and there is no conflict. The conflict, the struggle, the suffering, is always the result of failing to make that choice.
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burt
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Post by burt on May 22, 2013 12:14:09 GMT -8
So, are you coming to say there is nothing like addiction? Even a drug addict person can choose one and abandon another one without any trouble? RAJ I'm not saying it's easy to make that pure choice. I'm saying addiction is the failure to make it. At the root of a craving is the possibility of satisfying that option. When one jumps out of an airplane, there cannot be the craving to be back on the airplane because it is not possible. The choice to jump is a pure choice if it is made at all, because it is quite unrevokable. For that reason it can be difficult, but there is no conflict, no looking back longingly, only looking forward. The withdrawal of addiction is interesting. Mind and body are not separate, and the symptoms of withdrawal are proportional to the craving. Heroine is not more physically addictive than marijuana, it produces a more powerful effect, and mind expresses this psychological craving in physical terms, and so we say the body needs the substance. It is the mind that is foolish and not the body. How could the body crave a substance that interferes with it's proper functioning? The suffering of withdrawal is the result of the failure to make a pure choice. The point is that habits are a split mind game. Continue the habit or end it, but choose one and release the other, and there is no conflict. The conflict, the struggle, the suffering, is always the result of failing to make that choice. The withdraw symptoms are felt by the body just as intensely in the case where the pure choice is made and the substance never used again. In this it seems to me that in order for your model to be consistent the split is made not at the point where the resolve to quit is expressed but at the time the addiction is developed.
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Post by enigma on May 22, 2013 19:55:12 GMT -8
I'm not saying it's easy to make that pure choice. I'm saying addiction is the failure to make it. At the root of a craving is the possibility of satisfying that option. When one jumps out of an airplane, there cannot be the craving to be back on the airplane because it is not possible. The choice to jump is a pure choice if it is made at all, because it is quite unrevokable. For that reason it can be difficult, but there is no conflict, no looking back longingly, only looking forward. The withdrawal of addiction is interesting. Mind and body are not separate, and the symptoms of withdrawal are proportional to the craving. Heroine is not more physically addictive than marijuana, it produces a more powerful effect, and mind expresses this psychological craving in physical terms, and so we say the body needs the substance. It is the mind that is foolish and not the body. How could the body crave a substance that interferes with it's proper functioning? The suffering of withdrawal is the result of the failure to make a pure choice. The point is that habits are a split mind game. Continue the habit or end it, but choose one and release the other, and there is no conflict. The conflict, the struggle, the suffering, is always the result of failing to make that choice. The withdraw symptoms are felt by the body just as intensely in the case where the pure choice is made and the substance never used again. How do you know when a pure choice is made by another? The fact that one never uses a substance again doesn't imply it was a pure choice. The outcome of the internal battle can go either way. Why is that?
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Post by Gopal on May 22, 2013 22:42:10 GMT -8
Enigma,
Releasing the other is where problem starts.Releasing is not easy here as you say, it won't let us take the choice, it will pull us towards the habit,we would surely make the poor choice at that time,aren't we? I do admit all your explanation you have written, But taking a choice at that particular condition is not easy as you say. If you say it is possible to take a choice, then say control rather than pure choice, pure choice happen when we are not pull into either side.Isn't it?
RAJ
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burt
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Post by burt on May 23, 2013 7:29:13 GMT -8
The withdraw symptoms are felt by the body just as intensely in the case where the pure choice is made and the substance never used again. How do you know when a pure choice is made by another? The fact that one never uses a substance again doesn't imply it was a pure choice. The outcome of the internal battle can go either way. Why is that? It doesn't matter whether or not I know if a pure choice has been made, what I'm doing is following your logic to it's conclusion. You say the addiction ends once the pure choice with no split is made, and yes, I see your distinction between outward action and inner state, in that a lifetime addict can live a life without use from a given point onward. But to posit the split at the time that the intent to turn away from the addiction is formed would suggest that the hypothetical ex-addict that actually does make the pure choice would feel no symptoms. I guess that's possible but I'd further guess that it's very unlikely. That's why they call it pain and suffering. The pain felt by the one who has made the pure choice isn't accompanied by the suffering of the addict stuck in the split, but in your model, I'd have to ascribe the pain to the earlier split of the addiction itself.
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burt
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Post by burt on May 23, 2013 7:35:00 GMT -8
Enigma, Releasing the other is where problem starts.Releasing is not easy here as you say, it won't let us take the choice, it will pull us towards the habit,we would surely make the poor choice at that time,aren't we? I do admit all your explanation you have written, But taking a choice at that particular condition is not easy as you say. If you say it is possible to take a choice, then say control rather than pure choice, pure choice happen when we are not pull into either side.Isn't it? RAJ Raj, fwiw I think I see what you mean here and I take E's "pure choice" to be a very different animal than a regular old, run-of-the-mill choice ... his "pure choice" is something that only happens in the context of the dissolution of what appears to choose.
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Post by enigma on May 23, 2013 12:59:56 GMT -8
Enigma, Releasing the other is where problem starts.Releasing is not easy here as you say, it won't let us take the choice, it will pull us towards the habit,we would surely make the poor choice at that time,aren't we? I do admit all your explanation you have written, But taking a choice at that particular condition is not easy as you say. RAJ Right, it's not easy but it is simple. I only mean to say that when there is a struggle, the choice is not really made, as most seem to assume. The reason for the failure is then put on some mysterious counter force or physical craving that has nothing to do with mind. I mean only to address the mind games that are played so that they don't have to be played anymore. If the 'pure choice' cannot be made, then don't make that choice and be willing to face the consequences of your choice to continue indulging. If this turns out to not be an attractive option, then perhaps there will be the willingness to make the pure choice. Control is not necessary if the choice is made. It is not possible if the choice is not made. What is it that one would be trying to control? One's own desire? One's own actions? Presumably, the desire and actions match the choice.
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Post by enigma on May 23, 2013 13:15:59 GMT -8
How do you know when a pure choice is made by another? The fact that one never uses a substance again doesn't imply it was a pure choice. The outcome of the internal battle can go either way. Why is that? It doesn't matter whether or not I know if a pure choice has been made, what I'm doing is following your logic to it's conclusion. You say the addiction ends once the pure choice with no split is made, and yes, I see your distinction between outward action and inner state, in that a lifetime addict can live a life without use from a given point onward. But to posit the split at the time that the intent to turn away from the addiction is formed would suggest that the hypothetical ex-addict that actually does make the pure choice would feel no symptoms. I guess that's possible but I'd further guess that it's very unlikely. Yes. I don't see myself guessing and I'm suggesting if a pure choice is made, then there are no withdrawal symptoms. I've heard stories of smokers quitting with no withdrawal, but we would have to call that hearsay. What I see as unlikely is someone who is clearly addicted making such a pure choice. What would be very useful here is some kind of clinical evidence of someone using an addicting drug but for whatever reason doesn't not experience the psychological benefits of it. Maybe this odd patient is given the drug for other medical reasons. It would be interesting to see if there is a body withdrawal in one who is not psychologically addicted. What is this pain felt by the one who has made the pure choice? Sorry, still not quite following.
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Post by enigma on May 23, 2013 13:35:31 GMT -8
Enigma, Releasing the other is where problem starts.Releasing is not easy here as you say, it won't let us take the choice, it will pull us towards the habit,we would surely make the poor choice at that time,aren't we? I do admit all your explanation you have written, But taking a choice at that particular condition is not easy as you say. If you say it is possible to take a choice, then say control rather than pure choice, pure choice happen when we are not pull into either side.Isn't it? RAJ Raj, fwiw I think I see what you mean here and I take E's "pure choice" to be a very different animal than a regular old, run-of-the-mill choice ... his "pure choice" is something that only happens in the context of the dissolution of what appears to choose. No, I'm just talking about an actual choice, like the one you make when you get to a branch in the trail, or when you jump out of an airplane. A regular choice in which all other options are simply released. This is how choices should always be. There is no other way to make a choice but to choose one and release the other. Most of our choices are not like that, and the result is suffering. Physical or psychological withdrawal are excuses for changing one's mind, and mind wants to keep it's options open. Keeping options open is what withdrawal is. We can say. 'Look, my body needs it and it will kill me if it doesn't get it'. Or we'll say, 'I've tried and I can't quit'. Mind games. Humans excel at them. Again, I haven't said that making such a 'pure choice' is easy.
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